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Will You Also Leave?

On April 25, 2001, the following conversation took place in #CathApol, a Catholic Apologetics chatroom on both Undernet and Starlink-IRC networks. This particular discussion was on Starlink-IRC. Added comments are in this color and font.

If you do nothing else here, scroll to the last section, or click here to see our challengers reduced to making the EXACT SAME arguments the Jews made when we start discussing John 6.

May God bless you and edify you in reading this.

[19:54] *** Joins: BroBret (Lovitz5@AC9CD487.ipt.aol.com)
[19:56] <BigScott> Greetings
[19:56] <FlyAFK> Hello BroBret
[19:58] <BroBret> hello
[19:59] <Erin> hi
[20:00] <Erin> you know bret. When you point out that it is the untaught and unstable who distort pauls words
[20:00] <Erin> It begs the question.
[20:00] <Erin> Who are the taught and stable
[20:00] <Erin> the Baptists. The Lutherans oh heavens the dare I say, Catholics? Who Bret?
[20:00] <BroBret> those who are regenerated and saved through the word of God
[20:01] <BroBret> I'm listening to a debate too, so bear with me please
[20:01] <BigScott> those are the untaught?
[20:01] <Erin> and how is one regenerated bret?
[20:01] <BroBret> by the holy Spirit
[20:01] <BroBret> regen=rebirth
[20:01] <Erin> are you regenerated or are the Catholics regenerated or some other group?
[20:01] <BigScott> oh, I misread
[20:02] <BigScott> erin said who are the "taught" not the "untaught" mea culpa
[20:02] <Erin> ten lashes with a wet noodle
[20:02] <BroBret> all kinds of people are regenerated throughout the world
[20:02] <Erin> btw bret this is Irish you probably guessed
[20:02] <BroBret> ahhhh :-)
[20:02] <Erin> and are you regenerated?
[20:03] <Erin> hmmmm
[20:04] <BroBret> yes ma'am
[20:04] <BroBret> born again
[20:04] <BroBret> quickened
[20:05] <BroBret> drawn
[20:05] <BroBret> called
[20:05] <BroBret> :-)
[20:05] <BigScott> do you believe you "are" saved or "will be" saved?
[20:05] <Erin> BroBret, am I regenerated?
[20:05] <BroBret> saved and being saved
[20:05] <BroBret> -kjv Rom 8:16
[20:05] <ScottBot> Romans 8:16 > The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (KJV)
[20:05] <Erin> BroBret, am I regenerated?
[20:05] <BigScott> can that salvation be lost?
[20:06] <BroBret> no sir

This is an important point.

[20:06] <Erin> oh BroBret am *I* regenerated
[20:06] <BroBret> -kjv John 6:39
[20:06] <ScottBot> John 6:39 > And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (KJV)

Noting: Bret brings up John 6. (We'll get back to this later).

[20:06] <BroBret> -kjv John 10:28
[20:06] <ScottBot> John 10:28 > And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (KJV)

No "man" shall "pluck them out" but that does not say that they cannot leave of their own free will. Reference, the Prodigal Son: Luke 15:11-32. The son was "lost" and "dead" and is "come to life again."

[20:06] <BigScott> Bret... can you answer Erin?
[20:06] <BroBret> -kjv Phlp 1:6
[20:06] <ScottBot> Philippians 1:6 > Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (KJV)
[20:07] <BroBret> based on what she believes, I think that she isn't

Bret is basing this statement on the fact that Erin is a Catholic. But let's be consistent here, Bret would also say that religion does not save you - "faith alone" saves, right Bret? So, to be consistent, if Erin's religion doesn't "save" her - then neither can it condemn her, from Bret's point of view! Bret cannot "infallibly" declare what Erin's "faith" is, so the logical answer for him would have been that he cannot answer that question, it is between her and God - that is, if Bret is being consistent.

[20:07] <Erin> BroBret we talked about the over posting of scripture remember?

Bret had been warned on his initial visit to the channel that overuse of the Biblebot is not considered good "netiquette" here, and to only quote what is necessary to convey one's point. "Flooding" the channel can be taken as a deliberate ploy to siderail true discussion.

[20:08] <BroBret> just using it to support the questions put to me. if it is not acceptable than i can leave or you can kick me out :-)
[20:07] <BigScott> -kjv James 5:19-20
[20:07] <ScottBot> James 5:19 > Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; (KJV)
[20:07] <ScottBot> James 5:20 > Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (KJV)
[20:08] <BigScott> Bret... James is speaking of "one of you" (one who has been regenerated) and has "erred from the truth" (had to be "in" it to err "from" it....
[20:09] <BigScott> ... and IF someone brings him "back" (had to be "in" to be brought "back") then he has saved a sinner's "soul" from "death"
[20:10] <Erin> Ok BroBret, since you are not infallible, it is entirely possible that I'm regenerated do you think?
[20:10] <BroBret> -kjv 1John 5:16-17
[20:10] <ScottBot> 1st John 5:16 > If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (KJV)
[20:10] <ScottBot> 1st John 5:17 > All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (KJV)
[20:10] <Erin> Ok BroBret, since you are not infallible, it is entirely possible that I'm regenerated do you think?
[20:10] <BigScott> So, either one CAN lose this - or James is has twisted the Truth... which is it?
[20:10] <BroBret> It could be possible that deep down in your heart you don't believe what you profess
[20:10] <Erin> oh no I believe take it to the bank

Two conversations going on here (this is typical in a chatroom)... Erin's point is well made, and like the point I stated earlier, Bret cannot know Erin's heart - so to be consistent, he should have stated just that - he cannot know Erin's heart. Bret even concedes this point in saying, "It could be possible that deep down in your heart you don't believe what you profess..." So, IF Erin is professing Jesus Christ to be her Lord and Savior - then what more can Bret say?

[20:10] <BigScott> James is speaking to "one of you"
[20:11] <BroBret> Scott, how about you exegete the 3 verses i provided: Jn 6:39;10:28; Phlp 1:6

Noting, Bret is not contradicting my exegesis of James 5:19-20 - we'll move to John 6 here in a moment.

[20:11] <Erin> so since you aren't infallible. I could be right and you wrong, isn't that so?
[20:11] <Erin> so since you aren't infallible. I could be right and you wrong, isn't that so?
[20:12] <BigScott> John 6:39 I have exegeted to great length...
[20:12] <Erin> oh brother
[20:12] <BroBret> don't think so
[20:12] <BigScott> those who are given He will not lose... but who are drawn?
[20:13] <Erin> but it COULD be right BroBret?
[20:13] <BroBret> not being infallible doesn't mean one can misunderstan slavation
[20:13] <BigScott> good point Erin...
[20:13] <Erin> oh so you know infallibly that you are regenerated and I'm not right?
[20:13] <BroBret> sorry, got to many things going
[20:13] <BigScott> it COULD be so... so we're based on Scripture alone, we have two varied opinions...
[20:14] <BigScott> We need something beyond Scripture Alone... and Jesus provided us with the pillar and foundation of Truth...
[20:14] <Erin> well you should really be here when you arn't listening to a tape
[20:14] <BroBret> not because I know you heart, but because you say you definitely believe in your heart what you profess
[20:14] <BroBret> if you are wrong, than maybe.... :-)
[20:14] <Erin> Right, and since you are not infallible, you COULD be wrong
[20:14] <BroBret> Who is Jesus Christ?
[20:14] <Erin> that isn't what I asked
[20:15] <Erin> Right, and since you are not infallible, you COULD be wrong
[20:15] <BroBret> thats what I'm asking, let's cut to the chase
[20:15] <Erin> I asked first
[20:15] <Erin> Right, and since you are not infallible, you COULD be wrong
[20:15] <BroBret> let's get to the heart of what slavation is about
[20:15] <BroBret> *salvation
[20:15] <Erin> Right, and since you are not infallible, you COULD be wrong
[20:16] <Erin> answer the question
[20:16] <BigScott> Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior... He came down from heaven, became Man, died on the Cross for our sins - rose again on the third day that we might live with Him in eternity, IF we believe in Him AND do as He commanded.
[20:16] <Calvinist> Erin, you are not regenerated, sadly.
[20:16] <Calvinist> Hey, folks.
[20:16] <BroBret> AND... so His sacrifice is not enough?

Noting, my point before the "AND" was that we believe in Him AND do as He commanded. This is important and goes along with what I say later about Faith and Works - for Faith Alone does not save anyone, for faith that has no works is a dead faith. A dead faith cannot save you - only a living faith and such a living faith is made manifest through our works.

So we've knocked out two of the legs of the three legs that started Protestantism! Earlier the point was made regarding how Scripture Alone leads us to varied conclusions, and now Faith Alone is proven false. (In fact of point, the ONLY place the words faith and alone are used together in Scripture is in negation of the concept of sola fide - or Faith Alone).

James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (NAS)

[20:16] <Calvinist> How is everyone this evening?
[20:17] <BroBret> Hey brother, good to see ya again
[20:17] <Erin> how is it that you know this and do you know it infallibly?
[20:17] *** FlyAFK is now known as Greedyfly
[20:17] <Calvinist> Erin, of course not.
[20:17] <Erin> then its possible that I *am* regenerated right Calvinist?
[20:17] <BroBret> because the WORD OF GOD says so
[20:17] <Erin> lol
[20:18] <Calvinist> Erin, nope.

Calvinist has put himself in the place of the Infallible Judge here. When judging whether someone is regenerate or not, you ought to be absolutely sure. Speculation doesn't cut it.

[20:18] <Erin> the word of God says erin is not regenerated(?) :)
[20:18] <Erin> How is it that you know that Calvinist?
[20:18] <Calvinist> Erin, you do not show any sign's of being born again.

But see, Calvinist has made a conclusion, which has "eternal consequences" bases solely on his interpretation of what Erin's "signs" have been.

[20:18] <BroBret> the word of God says that Christ is savior and a sufficient sacrifice
[20:18] <Calvinist> You hate the truth, for one.
[20:19] <BigScott> Cal?
[20:19] <Erin> Calvinist, I hate what you think is truth. Since you are not infallible, I can be right even by your own standards
[20:19] <Erin> And you are RIGHT I hate ALL Heresy
[20:19] <Calvinist> No, no one is infallible, Erin, get over it.

OK, trying to pull John 6 into the discussion now, as requested by Bret earlier...

[20:20] <BigScott> Bret... do you do all that Jesus has commanded you?
[20:20] <Calvinist> You reject the truth, which is what you will always do until you are regenerated by God's Spirit.
[20:20] <Erin> so, I can be regenerated and you can be on your way down without repentance unless invinciblly ignorant and I can't think of how that can be so
[20:20] <BroBret> So Scott: Are you saying that Christ's sacrifice is not enough?
[20:20] <BigScott> Bret, answer me first
[20:20] <BigScott> Bret... do you do all that Jesus has commanded you?
[20:20] <BroBret> rerentence to Christ or to the RCC?
[20:21] <Erin> You reject Jesus Church, you reject Jesus plain and simple
[20:21] <BigScott> -kjv John 6:53-55
[20:21] <ScottBot> John 6:53 > Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (KJV)
[20:21] <ScottBot> John 6:54 > Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)
[20:21] <ScottBot> John 6:55 > For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (KJV)
[20:21] <BigScott> within the context of the verse you cited from John 6...
[20:22] <BigScott> So Bret... do you do all that Jesus has commanded you?
[20:22] <Calvinist> Erin, get off of Rome's work righteousness treadmill!
[20:22] <BroBret> How did they do that why Christ was present???
[20:22] <Calvinist> You can find rest and peace in Christ's imputed righteousness.
[20:22] <Erin> Calvinist, dump Calvin come to Jesus
[20:22] <BigScott> Cal... if you have no works... you have no faith.
[20:22] <Calvinist> Scott, your right.
[20:23] <BigScott> or... if you have no works, you have a "dead" faith... and a "dead" faith cannot save you...
[20:23] <Calvinist> Erin, Calvin bowed before Jesus alone.
[20:23] <BigScott> so works are important...
[20:23] <Calvinist> I follow Calvin, as Calvin followed Christ.
[20:23] <BroBret> Dump John Paul and come to Christ Erin :-)
[20:23] <Calvinist> Scott, never said they weren't.
[20:23] <BigScott> Calvin rejected Christ... for he rejected Christ's Church.
[20:23] <Calvinist> Scott, Rome rejected the gospel.
[20:23] <BigScott> Erin, get off of Rome's work righteousness treadmill!
[20:24] <BigScott> I'd rather be on a "work righteousness treadmill" than a "dead" treadmill.
[20:24] <Calvinist> Calvin rightly rejected Rome, not "the Church"
[20:24] <Calvinist> !
[20:24] <Calvinist> I am speaking of meritorius works, not works in general.
[20:24] <BigScott> Calvin wrongly rejected what Christ provided ... the Church
[20:25] <BigScott> Good works done in the state of grace ARE meritorious
[20:25] <Calvinist> Scott, Christ didn't provide Rome for his people.

Noting, I didn't say "Rome" that's just where the Church ended up being visibly centered, for that's where Peter went and was ultimately crucified/martyred.

[20:25] <Calvinist> That is absurd!
[20:25] <BigScott> what is absurd?
[20:26] <Calvinist> How you speak of 'the Church Christ provied', it is absurd to think that way.

We drifted away from this point, but let us now ask, "Did Jesus provide us with a Church?" He promised He would build one in Matthew 16:18, and it is promised that the Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth"

1 Tim 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. (NAS)
St. Paul tells us that the Church is the pillar and support (other translations say foundation, ground, bulwark, etc.) - and he also refers to how one is to "conduct himself in the household of God. which is the Church" - so it is a visible "place" too. So, did Jesus not provide us with the Church? Was St. Paul mistaken when he writes about how to "act" within this "place" that, according to Calvinist and/or Bret, does not exist?

[20:26] <Erin> Romans 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God
[20:26] <BroBret> again Scott...Is Christ's sacrifice not sufficient? You never answered?

Well, we've gotten a few conversations going here, it's hard to answer every single one of them. For others reading this, it is OK to re-ask a question that has been overlooked.

[20:26] <Erin> 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath
[20:26] <Calvinist> Scott, come, rest in the righteousness of Christ alone.
[20:26] <Calvinist> Bret, for Rome, it isn't.
[20:26] <BigScott> -kjv 1Pet 1:7
[20:26] <ScottBot> 1st Peter 1:7 > That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (KJV)
[20:26] <Erin> Romans 6:4-5 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as
[20:26] <Erin> Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk
[20:26] <Erin> in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his,
[20:26] <Erin> we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
[20:26] <Calvinist> That is why they are heretics.
[20:27] <BigScott> heretics are baptized Christians who have rejected the Truth...
[20:27] <Calvinist> ??
[20:27] <Erin> You are the heretic. Whats more I know that you have read the sola scriptura debates and all the debates that Sungenis' destroyed Calvinism
[20:27] <Erin> You are stubborne
[20:28] <Calvinist> Sungenis destroyed nothing.
[20:28] <Erin> Oh he did too
[20:28] <Calvinist> Sungenis doesn't impress anyone but you heretics.
[20:28] <Erin> and you know it
[20:28] <BigScott> LOL... Sungenis ate White's lunch...
[20:28] <Erin> lol
[20:28] <Erin> cleaned his proverbial clock
[20:28] <Calvinist> Sungenis tried to do such, but failed.
[20:28] <BroBret> Sungenis destroyed Calvinism, I doubt it

Well, Erin and I have both listened to many debates that Sungenis has participated in, we have several of his books too - we know what Robert has presented - and if one looks objectively at his arguments, clearly one can see the fabric of Calvinism unravelling, but that's another subject, and we're getting sidetracked into Sungenis here.

[20:28] <Erin> you are stubborne Calvinist
[20:28] <BigScott> swept the floor... :-)
[20:28] <Erin> mopped up
[20:28] <Calvinist> Sungenis is a heretic.
[20:29] <Erin> Sungenis finally came back home
[20:29] <Calvinist> Sungenis was a confused "Protestant".
[20:29] <BigScott> well... let's stop throwing the names.... that's getting us nowhere...
[20:29] <BroBret> proved that he was never saved
[20:29] <Calvinist> Then joined a cult (Boston ...), then joined Rome.
[20:29] <Erin> Paul says of himself, that he himself can be disqualified (or elsewhere translated as rejected, reprobate, castaway) (adokimos), 1 Cor. 9:24-27.
[20:29] <Erin> Heb. 6:6-8:
[20:29] <Erin> 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and bri(ers, is reprobate, and very near unto a curse, whose end is to be burnt.

This is a very good reference in the Scriptures, for it talks of one who was "once illuminated, have tasted also of the heavenly gift (Eucharist) and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost...(v. 4, ibid)" This is clearly a reference to those who were "in" and then "left" or "walked away." This is part of the Truth that Calvinist and BroBret are rejecting - and I didn't catch the fact that this reference was overlooked completely, until I reread the log while preparing it for posting. <sigh>

[20:29] <BroBret> -kjv 1John 2:19
[20:29] <ScottBot> 1st John 2:19 > They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (KJV)
[20:29] <Calvinist> Erin, where did you read that?
[20:30] <Erin> hmmmm
[20:30] <Calvinist> Sungenis was a very confused "Protestant", who denied Sola Scriptura, for whateevr felt good.
[20:30] <Calvinist> Hmmmm
[20:31] <BigScott> Cal... he didn't always deny sola scriptura...
[20:31] <Erin> you have seen the truth and rejected it. All I can do now is pray for you
[20:31] <Erin> It has been done
[20:31] <BigScott> he finally realized he was being duped...
[20:31] <Calvinist> Erin, you continue in your ways, and you will end up in hell.
[20:31] <BroBret> yeah, pray to Mary or the Saints, that will help alot
[20:31] <BigScott> there is no foundation for "sola" scriptura...
[20:31] <Erin> 2 Pet. 2:20-22
[20:31] <Erin> For if, after they have escaped the defilement's of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them (according the proverb: The dog is returned to his vomit, and the sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.).

Another excellent quote is presented by Erin, noting verse 22 especially - showing how it is possible for one to be tempted to return to the evil they were once in, even after "being washed."

[20:31] <Erin> They know that Scott.
[20:31] <Calvinist> lol
[20:32] <Erin> SS has been beaten to death
[20:32] <Calvinist> Ah, yeah, riiiight.
[20:32] <Calvinist> lol
[20:32] <Calvinist> Keep thinking that.
[20:32] <BigScott> Have you seen my response to Larryboy?
[20:32] <Calvinist> Ah, no, should I have?
[20:32] <Erin> Mat 7:21-23; Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that (work iniquity).
[20:32] <BigScott> just recently posted...
[20:32] <BigScott> at his request, I responded to his article.
[20:33] <Calvinist> Erin/irish/wolf/gram sent me the URL, didn't read it though.
[20:33] <Erin> 1 Cor 9:24-277 ... 24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[20:33] <Erin> 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
[20:33] <Erin> 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
[20:33] <Erin> If Paul had to run the race for salvation, so do I.
[20:33] <BroBret> I NEVER KNEW YOU...read it and weep :^ )
[20:33] <Calvinist> Amen, Bret. ;-)
[20:33] <BigScott> http://www.a2z.org/acts/cathapol/larry_ss_response.htm
[20:33] <Erin> but on what account bret.........ON WORKS
[20:33] <Erin> you read it and weep
[20:33] <BroBret> context context otherwise it is a PRETEXT

What IS the context? Keep reading in Matt 7, we're in the "Sermon on the Mount" and what follows v. 23 is the statement that you can't just be "hearers" of the word, but also "doers" of the word! Next follows the parable of the wise man who builds (good works) his house on a rock contrasted with the foolish man who builds his house on sand (other works). The one who builds/works wisely will stand in the end; the one who builds/works foolishly, will be swept away in the end. Erin's "context" was perfectly in context with the subject she is discussing.

[20:33] <Calvinist> You folks just repeat the same things you hear from Roman Apologists liek Sungenis.

The Truth does not change, so it bears repeating.

[20:34] <Erin> Phil 2:12; Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
[20:34] <Calvinist> Quite so, Bret.
[20:34] <BigScott> that's what He'll be saying to those who rejected His COMMAND to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood...
[20:34] <Calvinist> Scott, who rejected THAT?
[20:34] <BigScott> You do
[20:34] <Calvinist> No-one here,, but you!
[20:34] <BroBret> -kjv Phil 2:13
[20:34] <ScottBot> No such chap/verse: 2:13
[20:34] <Erin> Rom 2:6-10, Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and p
[20:34] <BigScott> You do not believe the Eucharist IS His Flesh...
[20:34] <Calvinist> lol
[20:34] <Erin> Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[20:34] <BroBret> -kjv Philippian 2:13
[20:34] <ScottBot> No such book: Philippian
[20:34] <BigScott> So how can you fulfill His command?
[20:35] <Erin> -kjv Philippians 2:13
[20:35] <ScottBot> Philippians 2:13 > For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (KJV)
[20:35] <Erin> thats actual grace
[20:35] <Erin> very Catholic
[20:35] <Calvinist> No where does it say that "the Eucharist IS His Flesh" ....what it does say is that those who have believed, have eaten; those who have come, have drinken.
[20:35] <BigScott> Cal... yes it does...
[20:35] <Calvinist> Scott, Rome perverts His command.
[20:36] <BigScott> -kjv Matt 26:26
[20:36] <ScottBot> 26:26 > And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. (KJV)
[20:36] <Calvinist> Yes, amen.
[20:36] <BigScott> that says "IS" His Body

Yes, those who come have eaten and have drank. Why? because when the come and "obey" they DO partake in Him in the Eucharist.

[20:35] <Erin> 1 Jn 2:3-4
[20:35] <Erin> And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[20:35] <Calvinist> Rome
[20:36] <Erin> 1 Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments, abideth in him, and he in him. And in this we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
[20:36] <Calvinist> Rome is a blasphemous system that will send you to hell, if you head her "commands".

This last statement of Calvinist's was pure speculation on his part. He doesn't support it, nor is it supportable by the only valid source a sola scripturist must adhere to - the Bible.

[20:36] <Erin> Thats enough for now :)
[20:36] <Erin> Calvinist you will regret those words for eternity
[20:36] <Erin> Jesus is God therefore in eternity not in time
[20:36] <Calvinist> Erin, when in heaven along with Calvin, Knox, and others, I will rejoice that I have rejected the lie for the truth.
[20:36] <BroBret> again... how did they eat His body while He was present???????????
[20:37] <BigScott> Bret... have faith my friend... the Jews grumbled and asked the same thing.
[20:37] <Greedyfly> Does God do things that are outside human comprehension?
[20:37] <BigScott> And many of them turned away and walked with Him no more...
[20:37] <BroBret> canabalism
[20:37] <BigScott> Bret... PRECISELY what the Jews said!
[20:37] <Erin> BroBret That is not allowed here
[20:37] <BroBret> -kjv Heb 10:10
[20:37] <ScottBot> Hebrews 10:10 > By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (KJV)
[20:38] <Calvinist> Scott, they "grumbled" because they took His words as if He was presenting to them a Eucahrist!
[20:38] <Calvinist> As Rome presents it.
[20:38] <BigScott> Calvinist... EXACTLY!!!
[20:38] <BigScott> Erin... he is responding as the Jews who had no faith did...
[20:38] <Calvinist> How can you fall for such a silly argument?
[20:38] <Erin> I know and so blind he can't see it

First off, Calvinist's point bears repeating:

Scott, they "grumbled" because they took His words as if He was presenting to them a Eucahrist as Rome presents it!
Yes, that is precisely why the Jews "grumbled" and why many of Jesus' own "disciples" turned away and "walked no more with Him." Now, did Jesus chase after all those "disciples" that left Him to correct some error in their thinking? NO! Because what they were thinking was exactly RIGHT! Did He explain things any differently before challenging the Twelve? Not at all, because He meant it the way He said it the first time around! It has been argued that Jesus "expected a negative" in the way He asked the question, which is fine - He expected a negative, but He didn't "force" a negative on them anymore than He did on the rest of the disciples that left. The Twelve "chose" to stay with Him.
Turning to the Twelve, He asks, "Will you also leave?" Those who were Faithful KNEW the Truth that Jesus was speaking. They KNEW that Jesus would provide them with the means to fulfill His command. They KNEW that the words He had spoken were both spirit and life - that if they believed and followed Him - that He would provide, and He did.

As Erin said, "so blind and he can't see it" even when HE WROTE IT!

[20:38] <BroBret> -kjv Heb 9:28
[20:38] <ScottBot> Hebrews 9:28 > So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (KJV)
[20:38] <Erin> yep :)
[20:38] <Calvinist> Scott, EXACTLY!!!
[20:38] <BigScott> And they walked away! As Calvin did too...
[20:39] <Calvinist> Funny how your point is no point to begin with.
[20:39] <Calvinist> Nope, they did not.
[20:39] <Erin> He can't see it scott
[20:39] <BigScott> Calvinist... if you were paying attention... the point is quite clear...
[20:39] <BigScott> open your eyes...
[20:39] <Erin> Nope, blind
[20:39] <Calvinist> They were thinking just like you do, they didn't understand the spiritual meaning!
[20:39] <BroBret> Scott, you won't answer my question about Christ's sacrifice huh? Not sufficient???
[20:39] <BigScott> be healed of your blindness Calvinist...
[20:39] <Calvinist> You ahve rejected Christ, repent of the blasphemous system known as Romanism!!
[20:39] <BroBret> -kjv 1Cor 2:14
[20:39] <ScottBot> 1st Corinthians 2:14 > But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)
[20:40] <BigScott> Bret... the Sacrifice of Christ was sufficient to redeem all of mankind...
[20:40] <BroBret> not based one what you believe, you add works
[20:40] <Erin> be sure you save this its a beaut
[20:40] <Erin> hmmm
[20:40] <BroBret> -kjv Gal 2:21
[20:40] <ScottBot> Galatians 2:21 > I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (KJV)
[20:40] <BroBret> -kjv Rom 3:20
[20:40] <ScottBot> Romans 3:20 > Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (KJV)
[20:41] <BigScott> Bret... that verse is quite applicable ... Calvinist is not receiving the things of the Spirit... that the Eucharist IS His Flesh... and through It you can fulfill His command...
[20:41] <Calvinist> Yeah, save this, proudly dispaly your hatred for the truth.
[20:41] <Calvinist> Scott, that is what Rome has read into John 6.
[20:41] <Calvinist> Why can't you see and understand?!
[20:41] <Calvinist> Deception, I guess. <g>
[20:42] <Calvinist> Rome is desribed as a whore, attractive, but really only destroys souls.
[20:42] <BroBret> no that was for you and Erin
[20:42] <BigScott> Bret... I know to whom you intended it... but I am not the one not understanding the words of the Spirit in John 6 - it is you can Calvinist crying "cannibalism" - just like the Jews did.
[20:42] <Erin> cal you can't say that
[20:42] <Calvinist> Just did.
[20:42] <BroBret> Mt. 7:21-23 describes the RCC to a tee
[20:42] *** Calvinist was kicked by Erin (rude beyond belief)
[20:43] <Erin> cal you can't say that
[20:43] <Erin>
[20:42] Just did.
[20:43] <Erin> not going to allow that taunting
[20:43] <BigScott> Calvinist should know better than to push buttons like that...
[20:43] *** Parts: BroBret (Lovitz5@AC9CD487.ipt.aol.com)

Well, that ended our discussion for the night. Clearly Calvinist and BroBret were fully answered tonight. When they could not come up with valid argumentation of the context and facts at hand, Calvinist attempted to "flame" us by changing the subject and throwing out the word "whore." This is truly a sign of someone weak who has lost an argument, but hasn't the integrity to admit defeat - and rather than admitting defeat, he lashes out.

I don't even think BroBret realized that he was making the EXACT SAME "grumblings" the Jews made when Jesus commanded that in order to "have life" you must eat his flesh. I hope Bret reads this, and then I hope he goes back and rereads John 6:53. Perhaps he will realize the Truth Jesus was speaking there - and realize he won't find that Truth in any cult of the Baptist organization. Baptists rationalize their way to pure symbolism when it comes to Holy Communion, rejecting the words of our Lord when He said, "This IS My Body..." (Matt 26:26).

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