PowerChat:

PowerChat: *** Entered KCC on 9/20/97 at 20:06 ***

Wallmell: Welcome Mr White...

JPIPMPKP: We gathr tonight after much preparation to debate Mr. James white over the papacy

JPIPMPKP: Dear mother as you speak so sweetly to Fr. Gobbi and the Mrian fathers you express to them

JPIPMPKP: and to all your true concern for our own pope John Paul II

JPIPMPKP: As all popes stand in place of your son, as His

JPIPMPKP: Vicars, they are infallible when they speak for the church and its doctrine

JPIPMPKP: WE ask tonight HUMBLY for part of this gift of infallibility

JPIPMPKP: Although Blessed Jesus, we are unworthy to beg for this gift, help us to use all TRUTH and W

JPIPMPKP: WISDOM when we speak and act for you.

JPIPMPKP: Let us not look toward success or failure, but instead as an opportunity to spread the faith

JPIPMPKP: Tonight win or loose , we humbly stand beneath your cross, with the blessed Mother

JPIPMPKP: and bleoved St. John.

JPIPMPKP: We draw strength from your broken and beaten back, we grasp at your peirced hands and feet,

JPIPMPKP: and we seek comfort in your wounded side.

JPIPMPKP: Lonely as the journey may be, we pick up our crosses and take our chances that we too may be

JPIPMPKP: be crucified for our knowledge of the TRUTH

JPIPMPKP: Bless us too with the gift of the Holy Spirit, because we know you are with us

JPIPMPKP: since we are 2 or more gathered in your name

JPIPMPKP: Bless and keep TIM throughout this debate, Send him the 12 apostles to surround him,

JPIPMPKP: and allow St Paul to enhance his reasoning that he may always speak for you on these topics

JPIPMPKP: Put his angel behind him, and allow his angel dear Jesus to comfort you with

JPIPMPKP: his words of yYour TRUTH

JPIPMPKP: Please add all other intentions at this time, and i will close

Maria7595: God help me stop drinking and grow in faith.

RCDEFENDER: may the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, given to tim at his Conformation,

RCDEFENDER: guide him tonight

Sherimar: ABBA, send forth your Spirit and infuse your servant Tim

Sherimar: with the power to speak in Your most Holy Name

FSHG4PEACE: Lord, for final peace and tranquility and to always walk in your path.

KCC1TIM: James, please feel free to add your petitions too, you are welcome here.

Maria7595: Good luck, Tim. May St. Michael protect you.

St Bede: Lord, sweet Jesus Lord of life, speak your awesome Truth

St Bede: to our hearts this evening...

Michl3282: Amen

JPIPMPKP: anyone else wish tim luck??

ForTKing: may Jesus guide all that are here tonight

CCFSTiger: Everyone please turn on your logs if you have not already

Sherimar: ABBA, let tonight 's debate be held in a spirit of Truth and

Sherimar: Justice for the glory of your name

FSHG4PEACE: For Unity, as Christ and Our Blessed Mother have wanted

Maria7595: Tiger, log?

Michl3282: Dear Holy Spirit surround this instrument of faith and guide him

FSHG4PEACE: Log?

JPIPMPKP: WE Ask this in JESUS" name

CCFSTiger: If you wish to keep a copy of this debate, please turn on your logs

CCFSTiger: amen

JPIPMPKP: AMEN!!!!!!!!!

RCDEFENDER: AMEN †

Sherimar: Amen

St Bede: †AMEN†

Maria7595: Tiger, done.

SI1VERSWAN: Amen

FSHG4PEACE: Have never done that before

StMary1954: how do you turn on logs?

Wallmell: Amen Amen Amen + † +

StMary1954: Anen

StMary1954: amen

ForTKing: Amen

FSHG4PEACE: Amen, and we say Amen

Maria7595: JPIP, that was a great prayer.

RCDEFENDER: CCFSTiger, I'm logging and it will be on my web page right after the debate

Home2Rome: Amen

JPIPMPKP: thank you

CCFSTiger: :)

KCC1TIM: CCFSTIGER will be our MODERATOR this evening

FSHG4PEACE: Jeanine, good prayer, really beautiful

JPIPMPKP: thank you

KCC1TIM: Thank you Jeanine :)

FSHG4PEACE: Thanks Steve :-)

JPIPMPKP: MR white did you like it??

Maria7595: TIM, we need a Protestant moderator, too.

Sherimar: welcome CCFSTiger

CCFSTiger: Folks, for the sake of debate - only two people will be chatting, KCC1Tim and

CCFSTiger: Orthopodep

Orthopodeo: JPIP: No, quite honestly, I didn't. That wasn't exactly meant to be a

Orthopodeo: non-partisan prayer.

CCFSTiger: yes a protestant moderator will be nice

KCC1TIM: James, please feel free to ask one of your friends to assist in moderating

Maria7595: Thanks. I'll shut up now. :-X

Wallmell: are we moving to the auditorium later? or is this the room?

KCC1TIM: This is it Mell

Orthopodeo: Just a moment, Tim.

Ramrei: can we up thre number of people allowed in the room?

CCFSTiger: when you have questions - please write them down and there

CCFSTiger: will be time later for answers

Orthopodeo: KCC: JasonTE will help moderate. He's a friend of mine.

CCFSTiger: hello Jason

Maria7595: Ramrei, no. Sorry.

Michl3282: No Ramrei, its set

KCC1TIM: That is agreeable to me

Wallmell: what is the maximum capacity of this room?

JasonTE: Hi!

CCFSTiger: 25

KCC1TIM: we are full now Mell

Michl3282: 23

FSHG4PEACE: Tiger? Is there a way to make more room in here?

CCFSTiger: no sorry FSH

Michl3282: No Sue

ForTKing: 23 is the maximum number of people allowed

St Bede: What time will the debate actually begin. I just got done

St Bede: with the yard and Man, I neea shower

Ramrei: OK thanks anyway

FSHG4PEACE: Ok, but Steve you are logging on to your web page right?

CCFSTiger: Jason and I will attempt to keep both debators in a reasonable frame of tone :)

KCC1TIM: OK, if you would like to begin 30 mins early, I am ready

Orthopodeo: A word concerning the use of a private room: we had all thought an

Orthopodeo: auditorium had been reserved. It wasn't. Hence, we either had to wait

Orthopodeo: three weeks, or attempt this tonight.

RCDEFENDER: FSHG4PEACE, yes.

OS Matthew: Bede: please, otherwise we'll have to clear the room! ;-)

Orthopodeo: We decided to go ahead and see if this will work. If it does, we can do the

Orthopodeo: auditorium later.

Michl3282: Ortho, and Tim, good,

Maria7595: I think Ramrei should be allowed to contribute. She's very intelligent.

St Bede: OS I better go :0

JasonTE: Sounds good.

Orthopodeo: KCC: Yes, the room is full, so there's no reason to wait.

Wallmell: Ok then since I invited over 150 people I will leave and let

Wallmell: someone else take my place....someone please forward

Wallmell: copy of log..thanks

CCFSTiger: debate with only 2 people

Michl3282: Maria, this is a debate between TIM and ORtho, ONLY

Orthopodeo: Wall: My apologies.

KCC1TIM: Mine too Mell

Orthopodeo: And thanks for working so hard. :)

Wallmell: accepted Mr White and Tim! :) God bless you both!

ForTKing: yes, Maria, this is between Tim and Ortho all others need to wait

ForTKing: until they call it over.

CCFSTiger: †

JPIPMPKP: wall bye and blessigns

ForTKing: who are the mediators?

RR1981: I am in here I can't believe it

Michl3282: Tiger and?

CCFSTiger: I am a moderator and so is Jason

KCC1TIM: James, I am the home team, would you like to go first?

Orthopodeo: Actually, you are defending the thesis, hence, the person defending always

Orthopodeo: gets to go first.

CCFSTiger: The debate is the Papacy - Tim

KCC1TIM: Very well, thank you so much

KCC1TIM: First a dedication

KCC1TIM: I dedicate this Debate to Jesus in the Holy Eucharist and His

KCC1TIM: Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. I also ask Our Blessed Lord

KCC1TIM: Through the intecessions of Mary and the Saints and our Beloved

KCC1TIM: Mother Teresa of Calcutta to open the eys of our separated

KCC1TIM: Brethren and make this an invitation for them to come home.

KCC1TIM: It is my objective to point out the veracity of the Catholic Church,

KCC1TIM: the Church that was Founded by Jesus Christ, governed by His

KCC1TIM: Vicars, the Popes Through the Ages.

KCC1TIM: My opening Statment:

KCC1TIM: A very pleasant good evening Mr. White and my brothers and

KCC1TIM: Sisters in Christ! I am here to refute the false teachings and

KCC1TIM: erroneous interpretations of James White concerning the Papacy.

KCC1TIM: I firmly believe Mr. White, through no fault of his own, has been

KCC1TIM: lead to believe these fallacies. They are based upon a man-made

KCC1TIM: Johnny-come-lately doctrine stemming from 16th Century

KCC1TIM: anti-Christian scholastics.

KCC1TIM: I will prove that Jesus Christ, God, Himself Founded ONE Church,

KCC1TIM: the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is

KCC1TIM: mentioned in the Apostles Creed, as first formally and publicly

KCC1TIM: defined at the Council of Nicea in the year 325.

KCC1TIM: I will show you exactly in the Sacred Scripture where Jesus

KCC1TIM: appoints St. Peter to be his Vicar, the Pope. I will also show you

KCC1TIM: where the Promise of this office was made, and the guarantee

KCC1TIM: given by Christ Himself, for all eternity was made, that the gates

KCC1TIM: of hell shall not prevail against His Church; and by the way neither

KCC1TIM: will Mr. White. I will also share with you how this completes the

KCC1TIM: Prophesy made in Daniel chapter 2. I will also correct the

KCC1TIM: misrepresentations offered by the few anti-Catholic apologists,

KCC1TIM: including Mr. James White, who try to argue Greek grammar and

KCC1TIM: syntax to oppose the literal and fundamental reality of Christ's

KCC1TIM: teaching for their own personal gain.

KCC1TIM: Jesus Christ founded a New Covenant in His Body and Blood

KCC1TIM: which replaced the Old Covenant of the Mosaic Sacrifice of the

KCC1TIM: Pentateuch. I will show you in Scripture where God is referred to

KCC1TIM: as Rock, as is Abraham, Jacob, and in the New Testament Peter;

KCC1TIM: all of which are acting as God's personal representative or VICAR.

KCC1TIM: Many people like Mr. White can claim the power of revelation

KCC1TIM: through the Holy Spirit, but fewer have it. And as most of you are

KCC1TIM: well aware of, Christ predicted this would happen. [Mat 7:15;

KCC1TIM: 24:11]. Furthermore, Christ knew and predicted many would NOT

KCC1TIM: understand Sacred texts. He gave us a representative here on

KCC1TIM: earth who would interpret and arbitrate disputes until He comes

KCC1TIM: again. That is the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church

KCC1TIM: through her Bishops collegially under the arbitration of the

KCC1TIM: Principal Bishop, the Servant of the Servants of God, the Vicar of

Orthopodeo: EXCUSE ME. Please slow down your scrolling.

KCC1TIM: Christ, commonly referred to as the Pope.

KCC1TIM: Also I will refute the Johnny-come-lately and non-Biblical and

KCC1TIM: man-made allegations of Sola Scriptura, which have no doubt

KCC1TIM: confused many and have led millions astray. Even Martin Luther,

KCC1TIM: on his death bed, stated, "My God, what have I done, even

KCC1TIM: milk-maids think they can interpret Scripture."

KCC1TIM: I would also like to ask Mr. White why he claims the Power of the

KCC1TIM: Holy Spirit in interpreting Sacred Scripture and denies bitterly that

KCC1TIM: same power to the Vicar of Christ, the Pope. I would also like to

KCC1TIM: know why Mr. White challenges the ordination and Apostolic

KCC1TIM: succession of the Pope and at the same time asks us to accept

KCC1TIM: the validity of his, i.e. Mr. White's ordination, (2 Corinthians

KCC1TIM: 11:13). And why does Mr. White think Jesus gave St. Peter the

KCC1TIM: Keys to the Kingdom of the Heavens {Matthew 16:18-19} and what

KCC1TIM: Scripture passage can he cite that gave him, i.e. Mr. White, the

KCC1TIM: Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven?

KCC1TIM: To put this simply, it seems either Jesus Christ is a liar, or Mr.

KCC1TIM: White is confused. When Jesus told Peter to feed His lambs and

KCC1TIM: later His Sheep, He had previously warned them, the Apostles,

KCC1TIM: about the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing. The Catholic

KCC1TIM: Church was founded on a ROCK, I think Mr. White's sect was

KCC1TIM: founded on sand, and the tide is coming. There are 28,000 sects

KCC1TIM: in the world, all claiming By Faith Alone and Scripture Alone, and

KCC1TIM: they are truly Alone. But Jesus Promised and guaranteed He

KCC1TIM: would remain with us, the Catholic Church till the end of time, i.e.

KCC1TIM: in the Holy Eucharist, fulfilling the Prophesy of Malachi 1:11; and

KCC1TIM: the Catholic Church is NOT ALONE!

KCC1TIM: James is my brother, though separated by protests of Doctrine,

KCC1TIM: we share the same Baptism, the very attribute that makes us

KCC1TIM: Christians. At the end of this evening I wish to extend to Mr.

KCC1TIM: White and his friends an invitation to come home to the Church

KCC1TIM: that Christ founded, the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I know I

KCC1TIM: can hear the laughter now, but maybe by the grace of God and

KCC1TIM: throught the Power of the Holy Spirit, we can settled all things

KCC1TIM: tonight. God love ya!

Orthopodeo: HELLO? Moderators? Please instruct KCC to slow his autoscrolling. It cannot be

Orthopodeo: read.

CCFSTiger: Tim- can you hold up/

CCFSTiger: now we will wait 2 mins for all to read

KCC1TIM: I cannot control the speed, it is on the slowest setting, please scroll up and read.

Fomvp: Hello everyone

CCFSTiger: hello Fomvp

CCFSTiger: anyone not finish reading?

ForTKing: done reading.

SI1VERSWAN: done

Ramrei: got it

RCDEFENDER: done

RR1981: done

Fomvp: didn't have anything to read....

Sherimar: done

StMary1954: done

Logos1611: done

Aomin: Done

CCFSTiger: fomvp contact rcdefendr after the chat

St Bede: ...

JasonTE: Only type to the screen if you AREN'T done. We can't check everybody's name on the list

CalDef: done

JasonTE: every time

CCFSTiger: Mr. White, I believe it is your turn

Orthopodeo: Thank you all for being here this evening. I would like to state at the

Orthopodeo: beginning that our topic tonight is not sola scriptura, the Mass, or anything

Orthopodeo: else.... It is the Papacy. I will remain focused upon that, and ask that Tim

Orthopodeo: do the same thing. Secondly, I would like to ask Tim to refrain from

Orthopodeo: ad-hominem attacks, as I will as well. Thank you.

Orthopodeo: 1. The Roman Catholic Church claims that Peter is placed in a position of

Orthopodeo: primacy by the Lord Jesus Himself. This primacy is one of honor,

Orthopodeo: jurisdiction, and rulership.

Orthopodeo: 2. This primacy given to Peter is presented, according to the dogmatic

Orthopodeo: teachings of the Church of Rome, in Matthew 16:18-19 and in John

Orthopodeo: 21:15-17. According to Roman teaching, Peter is the rock of Matthew 16;

Orthopodeo: that Christ, in conferring a primacy upon Peter, intends this to be

Orthopodeo: understood to apply to Peter's successors as well, and that hence Christ

Orthopodeo: is, in this passage, instituting the office of the Pope (the Papacy) for the

Orthopodeo: Christian Church.

Orthopodeo: Rome further teaches that when Christ spoke to Peter and said "feed my

Orthopodeo: sheep," He was, by so doing, setting Peter apart as the pastor of all

Orthopodeo: Christians in a way different from all the other apostles.

Orthopodeo: 3. Peter is said to have been the bishop of Rome.

Orthopodeo: 4. Because of this, his supposed primacy is passed on to his successors,

Orthopodeo: the bishops of Rome.

Orthopodeo: 5. And finally, this viewpoint has supposedly been the ancient and

Orthopodeo: constant faith of the Christian Church. Supposedly the Church has always

Orthopodeo: believed this to be true. Anyone who would express a different

Orthopodeo: perspective is holding to perverse opinions, and are, in fact, anathema

Orthopodeo: (Vatican I's wording).

Orthopodeo: Statement: Therefore, it is incumbent upon the defender of Roman Catholic teaching

Orthopodeo: to demonstrate the following:

Orthopodeo: 1) Jesus is without question speaking to Peter in Matthew 16, and is in so doing

Orthopodeo: identifying him as the rock upon which the Church is built.

Orthopodeo: 2) That the words the Lord Jesus speaks establish Peter as the "prince of the

Orthopodeo: apostles," the very first pope, the head of the Christian Church.

Orthopodeo: 3) That these words of Jesus necessarily indicate the creation of an office

Orthopodeo: of Pope, replete with successors and the associated powers.

Orthopodeo: 4) And finally, that the Christian Church has always held this to be her

Orthopodeo: constant and unchanging faith.

Orthopodeo: We must note that my opponent cannot merely demonstrate that the

Orthopodeo: Roman position is probably true, or that it is likely to be true, but that it is

Orthopodeo: true beyond question. Rome claims absolute authority in spiritual matters

Orthopodeo: over all believers in Jesus Christ. She claims infallible teaching authority.

Orthopodeo: The Papacy is not an issue upon which one can be neutral.

Orthopodeo: Pope Boniface made this quite clear in the papal bull, Unam Sanctam promulgated

Orthopodeo: November 18th, 1302:

Orthopodeo: Consequently we declare, state, define and pronounce that it

Orthopodeo: is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature

Orthopodeo: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Orthopodeo: Given that there are only a handful of passages that can in any way be

Orthopodeo: construed as relevant to the Papacy in the entire Bible, I suggest we spend

Orthopodeo: the first hour discussing those passages, such as Matthew 16, John 21,

Orthopodeo: and Luke 22 (as I did in _The Roman Catholic Controversy_, pp.

Orthopodeo: 113-118). Then, in the second hour, we can address some of the

Orthopodeo: historical evidence.

Orthopodeo: Thank you.

JasonTE: Anybody not done reading?

Maria7595: I'm done.

KCC1TIM: Very Well. I shall prove that Jesus Christ did in fact Appoint St.

KCC1TIM: Peter to be His Vicar

KCC1TIM: Are we ready?

CCFSTiger: Tim wait

Orthopodeo: Shall we do the biblical evidence first, KCC?

CCFSTiger: ok - continue

KCC1TIM: Please, I am ready when you are

CCFSTiger: Ok Tim

KCC1TIM: My turn or James?

CCFSTiger: yours

KCC1TIM: I shall begin with John 21

KCC1TIM: John 21: 15-17 "When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said

KCC1TIM: to Simon Peter, Simon son of John do you love me more than

KCC1TIM: these?" He said to Him, "Yes Lord, you know that I love You."

KCC1TIM: Jesus said to him, "Feed My lambs." He then said to him a

KCC1TIM: second time, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" He said to

KCC1TIM: Him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed

KCC1TIM: My lambs."

KCC1TIM: He said to him a third time, "Simon son of John, do you love Me?"

KCC1TIM: Peter was distressed that He had said to him a third time, "Do

KCC1TIM: you love Me?" and he said to Him, "Lord, You know everything;

KCC1TIM: You know that I love You. Jesus said to him, "Feed my Sheep."

KCC1TIM: The question Christ asked, Do you love Me more than these,

KCC1TIM: meant did Peter love Him more than any of the Apostles. Christ

KCC1TIM: puts this question thrice to St. Peter, that triple protestation of

KCC1TIM: love, might correspond to his triple denial. St. Peter did not

KCC1TIM: answer that he loved Him more than the rest did, which he could

KCC1TIM: not know, (no one knows the interior of another), but he modestly

KCC1TIM: says, yes, Lord, You know that I love You: and the third time, You

KCC1TIM: know all things, and the hearts of all men, You know how much I

KCC1TIM: love You. At every protestation, Jesus answered feed My Lambs;

KCC1TIM: and the third time, feed My Sheep. To Feed, in the style of the

KCC1TIM: Scriptures is to Guide, Rule, and Govern.

KCC1TIM: As to why Jesus said Simon son of John: The father's name is

KCC1TIM: added to discriminate him from Simon Thaddeus, ( the Zealot),

KCC1TIM: that Everyone might know that the Chief of the Universal Church

KCC1TIM: was not given to any other Apostle but Peter. This Simon son of

KCC1TIM: John is the same as Simon bar Jona.

KCC1TIM: St. Peter had 3 times renounced his Master; and Jesus, to give

KCC1TIM: him am opportunity of repairing his fault by a Triple confession,

KCC1TIM: three several times demanded of him, if he loved him more than

KCC1TIM: these. St. Augustine summed it up this way, "He who had thrice

KCC1TIM: denied through fear, might thrice confess through Love."

KCC1TIM: The lambs and Sheep of our Savior here mean the Faithful, who

KCC1TIM: compose His Church, without any distinction of Jew or Gentile.

KCC1TIM: St. Peter, by these words, is appointed to take charge of the

KCC1TIM: whole flock, as being the Chief and Prince of the Apostles. He

KCC1TIM: is, in some manner, the Pastor, not, only of the Sheep, but of the

KCC1TIM: Pastors themselves. They each have their own flock to look after;

KCC1TIM: but to Peter is committed the Care of ALL; He alone is the Pastor

KCC1TIM: of all.

KCC1TIM: Our Blessed Lord Promised the Spiritual Supremacy to St. Peter

KCC1TIM: (Matthew 16:19) and here He fulfills that Promise, by charging him

KCC1TIM: with the superintendency of all his sheep, without exception; and

KCC1TIM: consequently of his whole flock.

KCC1TIM: St. Ambrose and some others take notice, as if by the lambs,

KCC1TIM: might be understood the people, and the Sheep, those placed

KCC1TIM: over the people, as Bishops and Priests. But others make no

KCC1TIM: such difference in this place, between lambs and sheep, only as

KCC1TIM: comprehending all the Members of Christ's Church, of what

KCC1TIM: condition so ever, even the rest of the Apostles. For here it was

KCC1TIM: that Christ GAVE to St. Peter that power which he had Promised

KCC1TIM: him, in the region of Ceasaria Phillipi, (Matthew 16:18) that is,

KCC1TIM: Jesus Christ NOW made Peter Head of HIS WHOLE CHURCH,

KCC1TIM: as He had insinuated the first meeting, when St. Andrew brought

KCC1TIM: his brother to Our Savior, When Christ CHANGED his name from

KCC1TIM: Simon to Peter: again, when He chose him, and made him the

KCC1TIM: FIRST of His 12 Apostles; but particularly, when He said to him,

KCC1TIM: Thou art Peter, (a Rock) and upon this Rock I will Build My

KCC1TIM: Church.

KCC1TIM: Upon this account the Catholic Church from the VERY FIRST

KCC1TIM: ages, has ALWAYS reverenced, and acknowledged the Supreme

KCC1TIM: power of the Successors of St. Peter, in spirituals, over all

KCC1TIM: Christian Churches. This appears also by the writings of

KCC1TIM: Tertullian, St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, of the greatest Doctors and

KCC1TIM: Bishops, both East and West, of St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St.

KCC1TIM: John Chrysostom, in several places, of the First General or

KCC1TIM: Ecumenical Councils, Particularly of the Council of Chalcedon,

KCC1TIM: 451 A.D.

CCFSTiger: wait 3 mins for reading

KCC1TIM: When you are finished, I shall next share with you 50 Biblical proofs.

Orthopodeo: I do hope we end up having something more than "core dump text file"

Orthopodeo: wars. I don't want to open the text files of my books (which I could do) and

Orthopodeo: just upload what everyone else can read. I thought this was supposed to

Orthopodeo: have interaction between the two of us.

KCC1TIM: It is James, I just anticpated a few things, I assure you.

CCFSTiger: you may continue

KCC1TIM: James, I am not just a truck driver you know. :)

Orthopodeo: For example, if you wish to discuss John 21, let's discuss it first, before

Orthopodeo: going on to Matthew 16. Then we can do Matthew 16.

KCC1TIM: Later, the 50 Proofs first

Orthopodeo: No, John 21 first.

JasonTE: Yes, complete John 21 first.

CCFSTiger: Tim - yes John 21 first

Orthopodeo: I agree with the interpretation presented by Cyril regarding John 21:

Orthopodeo: If anyone asks for what cause he asked Simon only, though the other

Orthopodeo: disciples were present, and what he means by "Feed my lambs," and the

Orthopodeo: like, we answer that St. Peter, with the other disciples, had been already

Orthopodeo: chosen to the Apostleship, but because meanwhile Peter had fallen (for

Orthopodeo: under great fear he had thrice denied the Lord), he now heals him that was

Orthopodeo: sick, and exacts a threefold confession in place of his triple denial,

Orthopodeo: contrasting the former with the latter, and compensating the fault with the

Orthopodeo: correction.

Orthopodeo: The passage involves the Lord Jesus' *restoration* of Peter, not the *elevation* of

Orthopodeo: Peter above anyone else.

Orthopodeo: The three-fold question reflects the three-fold denial Peter had uttered,

Orthopodeo: nothing more.

Orthopodeo: There is nothing in the passage that suggests that Peter is given any kind

Orthopodeo: of "primacy" at all, and it took centuries before anyone read that concept

Orthopodeo: into the passage.

KCC1TIM: Jesus is clear as I have written, that He is personally making Peter the shepherd.

Orthopodeo: Peter *A* shepherd, not THE shepherd.

Orthopodeo: "To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's

Orthopodeo: sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be

Orthopodeo: shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not

Orthopodeo: because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be;

Orthopodeo: not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those

Orthopodeo: entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock."

Orthopodeo: Those are Peter's own words, from 1 Peter 5:1. Notice he doesn't say

Orthopodeo: THE elder, but a FELLOW elder.

Orthopodeo: If you'd like to move to Matthew 16, there's a great deal there to cover.

KCC1TIM: The three-fold question reflects both the 3-fold denial and strongly

KCC1TIM: emphasizes Peter's humanity wil not interfere with his mission to

KCC1TIM: be shepherd on earth. No. he does say fellow elder in a vauge

KCC1TIM: sense. He is simply recognizing his fellow Bishops.

Orthopodeo: A "vague sense"? I will allow the reader to judge of that terminology.

KCC1TIM: Let's hold on with Mathew 16:18,

Orthopodeo: The point is, Tim, that my interpretation of John 21 is not only textually

Orthopodeo: consistent, but it is historical, as well. Yes, lets move on.

KCC1TIM: Vauge terminology? That is what this is all about

KCC1TIM: OK, the 50 Proofs.

Orthopodeo: The simple fact is, Tim, that the Apostle Peter never calls himself THE

Orthopodeo: shepherd. He calls himself a fellow elder.

KCC1TIM: 50 NEW TESTAMENT PROOFS FOR PETRINE PRIMACY AND

KCC1TIM: THE PAPACY

Orthopodeo: Not 50 proofs in one fell swoop. That would be meaningless. One or two at a time,

KCC1TIM: The Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically-based, and is

Orthopodeo: allowing for dialogue and discussion.

KCC1TIM: derived from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles.

KCC1TIM: Like all Christian doctrines, it has undergone development through

KCC1TIM: the centuries, but it hasn't departed from the essential

KCC1TIM: components already existing in the leadership and prerogatives of

KCC1TIM: St. Peter. These were given to him by our Lord Jesus Christ,

KCC1TIM: acknowledged by his contemporaries, and accepted by the early

KCC1TIM: Church. The biblical Petrine data is quite strong, and is

KCC1TIM: inescapably compelling by virtue of its cumulative weight. This is

KCC1TIM: especially made clear with the assistance of biblical

KCC1TIM: commentaries. The evidence of Holy Scripture (RSV) follows:

KCC1TIM: 1. Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock

KCC1TIM: I will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail

KCC1TIM: against it."

KCC1TIM: The rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not

KCC1TIM: his faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the

KCC1TIM: foundation, but as the architect who "builds." The Church is built,

KCC1TIM: not on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see, e.g., 1

KCC1TIM: Pet 2:5). Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority

KCC1TIM: of all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the

KCC1TIM: traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as

KCC1TIM: the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior

KCC1TIM: of the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy).

KCC1TIM: Moreover, Rock embodies a metaphor applied to him by Christ in

KCC1TIM: a sense analogous to the suffering and despised Messiah (1 Pet

KCC1TIM: 2:4-8; cf. Mt 21:42).Without a solid foundation a house falls. St.

KCC1TIM: Peter is the foundation, but not founder of the Church,

KCC1TIM: administrator, but not Lord of the Church. The Good Shepherd

KCC1TIM: (John 10:11) gives us other shepherds as well (Eph 4:11).

KCC1TIM: 2. Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of

KCC1TIM: heaven . . ."

KCC1TIM: The "power of the keys" has to do with ecclesiastical discipline

KCC1TIM: and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the

KCC1TIM: faith, as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this

KCC1TIM: power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution,

KCC1TIM: baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative

KCC1TIM: powers. In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a

KCC1TIM: man who is "over a house" (Gen 41:40; 43:19; 44:4; 1 Ki 4:6;

KCC1TIM: 16:9; 18:3; 2 Ki 10:5; 15:5; 18:18; Is 22:15,20-21).

KCC1TIM: 3. Matthew 16:19 ". . . whatever you bind on earth shall be bound

KCC1TIM: in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in

KCC1TIM: heaven."

KCC1TIM: "Binding" and "loosing" were technical rabbinical terms, which

KCC1TIM: meant to "forbid" and "permit" with reference to the interpretation

KCC1TIM: of the law, and secondarily to "condemn" or "place under the ban"

KCC1TIM: or "acquit." Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority

KCC1TIM: to determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation

KCC1TIM: and the Spirit's leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from

KCC1TIM: the Church. "Binding and loosing" represent the legislative and

KCC1TIM: judicial powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn

KCC1TIM: 20:23). St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these

KCC1TIM: powers by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.

KCC1TIM: 4. Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk

KCC1TIM: 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the "first"

KCC1TIM: (10:2). Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.

TerryPax: Whew

Orthopodeo: Excuse me, but there are dozens of problems already.

TerryPax: Peace all :-)

Michl3282: Excuse me, but the auditorium is open

Orthopodeo: We must discuss them now, or they will be irrelevant.

PPascuzzi: POint of order Tim got punted

St Bede: oops...

FSHG4PEACE: Tim was punted

FSHG4PEACE: And

RCDEFENDER: people both KCC and CCFS tiger have been bounce from AOL,

RCDEFENDER: please make room for them to renter the room. thank you

FSHG4PEACE: The Audotorium is open

FSHG4PEACE: SO we may be leaving for another room

Winggglow: where

Michl3282: YES THE AUDITORIUM IS OPEN AND 34 THERE, CAN WE MOVE

Orthopodeo: What auditorium?

ForTKing: where? what is the name of it?

Winggglow: how

Michl3282: Keyword Live

Maria7595: Please send me a link.

RCDEFENDER: the auditorium is for an other event not this one

Michl3282: USE KEYWORD - LIVE

I Coffee I: FSH can youi go there and we will link to you?

Michl3282: Steve is open CHAT there

FSHG4PEACE: Which one though Michl? I can go and link everyone, but there

FSHG4PEACE: are several

Ix0us: Is this where the sola scrptura debate is?

Michl3282: Wait BRB with Link

FSHG4PEACE: Ok

Michl3282: Oh Shoot I am afraid I will lose my place

Orthopodeo: Ix: Papacy debate, but the Roman Catholic representative just got dumped.

I Coffee I: FSH,, if you go we can just click on your name

RCDEFENDER: PLEASE MAKE ROOM FOR CCFS TIGER AND KCC1TIM TOI RE-ENTER THIS ROOM

St Bede: Ortho odd...

Maria7595: I can serve as a backup if you like.

FSHG4PEACE: Okay, I am going to look for it. May not get back here.

Winggglow: just hiot keyword live but I do not think we can use it now

OS Matthew: Ortho: Is this a conspiracy! ;-)

OS Matthew: Ortho: sabotaged!

Fomvp: and Tim can't return til someone leaves... so, I shall do so.. Michl, please advise if you

Orthopodeo: St Bede: :)

Fomvp: move to another room

PPascuzzi: I gueee the last two in should step out for moderator and debaters

I Coffee I: I willl leave tell me when Tim is back on so no one else gets this place

Orthopodeo: The Jesuits must control AOL.

Michl3282: Okay Ann

Ramrei: LOLOL

OS Matthew: Ortho: Hey...many would be on your side in this debate!

Maria7595: I will leave under the condition that someone send me a log later.

Michl3282: There is no Link to room,

RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, one could only hope LOL

OS Matthew: Ortho: A lotta libs.

FSHG4PEACE: What is the name of it Michl?

FSHG4PEACE: Name of the room?

RCDEFENDER: Maria, go to my home page .....I'll be send out a massive E-mail with the link

Michl3282: Okay I am leaving I will inform FSH of name

FSHG4PEACE: Ok Michl

PPascuzzi: Tim still hasn't made it back on line

Maria7595: Thanks, RC. I'm gone. Tell Tim I just made an opening.

Orthopodeo: Hey Jason, you're in charge! Do something! LOL.

RCDEFENDER: Maria, ok :-0

JPIPMPKP: MR white this does happen to tim lately

RCDEFENDER: :-)

SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-By: FieRy Loaded

SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-Loaded 183 times!

Michl3282: Okay its Keyword Live then Live Events FFSH

RR1981: We are leaving to make room Rc please send us the link so we may read the log later

JasonTE: :)

RCDEFENDER: RR, OK

RR1981: thanks everyone God Bless

JasonTE: We can't do anything until Tim's back.

Michl3282: FSH, DID YOU ALL GET THIS ITS KEYWORD LIVE THEN LIVE EVENTS CC PEOPLE ARE THERE

ForTKing: is Tim back online?

SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-By: FieRy Pinter

SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-Room added....

TerryPax: Sorry I'm going to miss this -- is someone making a log?

OS Matthew: Jason: He is in AOL purgatory.

SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-By: FieRy Pinter

TerryPax: I'd like one please -- I'll leave - I was in last I think

RCDEFENDER: TerryPax, the log will be on my home page

St Bede: SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUS

RCDEFENDER: {{{{{{{Tim}}}}}}}}}}}}}

KCC1TIM: I am back and PLEASE NO IM's!

KCC1TIM: I got punted because 5 people Imed me

KCC1TIM: Where did M

KCC1TIM: Mr. White go?

PPascuzzi: Room there is a hacker in the room

Orthopodeo: I'm here. Someone is hacking us.

Sherimar: Steve leave your IM open to me..with no activity we may get punted

Sherimar: as wellSNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYo

RCDEFENDER: Tim type $im_off and hit the availbe buttom this will shut them off

Sherimar: SNUG JUST TRIED TO PUNT ME

Dashace: Sheri me as well

SNuGYoUSOB: Sorry =]

Michl3282: Tim you got punted cuz there is a punter here

Sherimar: SNUG leave the room

Orthopodeo: $im_off

ForTKing: Snugy you are in violation of TOS

ForTKing: you were bombing me

KCC1TIM: My IM's are now off

PPascuzzi: Sheri same here

CalDef: good, Ortho.whenever you see MysticGold it is a "hacker"

RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, yes but in your IM window were you put the persons name

SNuGYoUSOB: PPas called me a piece of sh__ hehehehe =]

Sherimar: I had my IMS blocked

Sherimar: to all except Steve

SNuGYoUSOB: My job here is done!

SNuGYoUSOB: Go about your business!

PPascuzzi: Sheri you also have to have buddy chats turned off BEFOR hacker starts up

CalDef: he just left

Michl3282: TIM< the Auditorium is open

KCC1TIM: Praise God, shall we continue?

KCC1TIM: Where?

Sherimar: I just kept clicking them off

Michl3282: TIM< I am trying to get Link, hold on

KCC1TIM: Ok

ForTKing: where are we going?

KCC1TIM: James I am sorry about this

Orthopodeo: KCC: No problem. Not your fault.

Sherimar: anyway Steve leave IM open or we will get punted for

Sherimar: inactivity and we won't get the log

Michl3282: Keyword Live

KCC1TIM: Thanks

RCDEFENDER: people just KCC1TIM,and Orthopodeo, should be talking in room......thanks

KCC1TIM: Michele, how are james and I to get there?

Michl3282: Steve, the auditorium has 34 waiting on TIM

KCC1TIM: That will only allow us to observe

JasonTE: Somebody forced me offline. Is the debate moving to another room?

Orthopodeo: Tim: However, I must ask that the format be adjusted here. I have megs of

Orthopodeo: files I could upload, as you obviously do, too. Can we possibly focus more

Orthopodeo: on interaction with one another?

Winggglow: I was forced off too

St Bede: Turn off your buddy chat

St Bede: I just got slammed

Michl3282: Jeansz Tell them how to get to the Auditorium

KCC1TIM: First we must determine where it is we are going?

Jeans Zz: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{TIM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

FSHG4PEACE: we all have been. Very Christian.

CalDef: hacker is back

Jeans Zz: okay,, let me double check

KCC1TIM: Call a Guide

CalDef: turn off IMs

I Coffee I: Snugy is the booter

FSHG4PEACE: Michl I couldnt get there

ForTKing: yes we need a guide

St Bede: FSH Yes, this happened to me when I went to Christian Fellowship

ForTKing: brb

FSHG4PEACE: Yes Coffee he is

Michl3282: FSH Jeans, is going to get Step by Step

KCC1TIM: Get Snuggy this is costing me $$ I had to use the 800 number

PPascuzzi: guide is on the way

I Coffee I: turn off IMs $im_off

FSHG4PEACE: Ok

READER1022: SNUG: My friends are trying to chat here.

I Coffee I: then put in x in the body

FSHG4PEACE: Mine are going off

Winggglow: i called a guide

KCC1TIM: Thanks Marie

Jeans Zz: TODAYS LIVE EVENTS

SNuGYoUSOB: READER =Þ

Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE

Orthopodeo: Tim: < sigh > I'm afraid I need to suggest that we take CCFS's advice. I

Orthopodeo: don't think idiots like SNuGY can do this while we are in an auditorium.

I Coffee I: Thanks Marie

Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE CHAT SCHEDULE

Jeans Zz: ENTER CHATROOM

SNuGYoUSOB: Ortho You nut

KCC1TIM: Ok in 3 weeks then?

I Coffee I: Jeans it is full I was just there

JPIPMPKP: he did it to me

Orthopodeo: I must say, though, that everyone behaved just fine up to then. :)

Jeans Zz: COFFEE :(

FSHG4PEACE: Geez.

JPIPMPKP: MR White you know this snug guy

Orthopodeo: But before we do that, let's talk, openly, about the best way to do this in the

Orthopodeo: Pfuture.

Jeans Zz: let's keep trying,,they're just talking garbage in the auditorium,,polling etc

Orthopodeo: JPIP: Are you kidding?

Winggglow: this is an outrage

RCDEFENDER: KCC1TIM, Orthopodeo, I can make a private room that no others can

JPIPMPKP: no who is he

RCDEFENDER: eneter. i'll log the debates there and post them for all to read. agreed/

FSHG4PEACE: Good idea. We need it to be scheduled, in a room where the punters

FSHG4PEACE: cannot take advantage

KCC1TIM: Jim, I am game for a re-match, however, if you are up to it, we can continue now

SNuGYoUSOB: James is my BEST friend right james? =]

KCC1TIM: Snuggy = {S jrkstore

KJVBK: KCC.......what happen to the debate?

Orthopodeo: Do you think we can have a meaningful discussion with SNuGY in the room? You know

Orthopodeo: how people like that are.

St Bede: Snuggy Truth hurts huh?

Winggglow: I do not

KCC1TIM: No we need to dispose of him first

SNuGYoUSOB: I'm outta here

SNuGYoUSOB: Have fun arguing!!!

Michl3282: ORTHO the auditorium is free, do you and TIM want to try it?

Orthopodeo: They will sit there nice and quiet when the Guide comes in, then poof, they

Orthopodeo: go nuts as soon as the Guide leaves.

Jeans Zz: {{{{{{{Paul}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

CalDef: Ortho is correct

Orthopodeo: Michl: I don't know how auditoriums work. If Tim is game, so am I.

I Coffee I: Snug has left the room : )

Michl3282: Okay Jeans tell them again how to get there

Winggglow: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ ^i^ TIM ^i^ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Orthopodeo: But, Tim, let's discuss the format.

RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, I'll be forwarding the log to TOS general. His days on

RCDEFENDER: AOL are now numbered

KCC1TIM: We can get there, however we have no control to get in to where we type Michelwe

Jeans Zz: KEYWORD LIVE

Michl3282: PLEASE LISTEN TO JEANS IF WE WANT TO CONTINUE

Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE EVENTS

Winggglow: Amen Steve

Orthopodeo: RC: Yeah, and he'll be back on under a new name in less than an hour. Sadly.

CalDef: RC, he'll have a different name in 10 minutes

KCC1TIM: We wil only be in the chat rows which is useless

Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE SCHEDULE

Jeans Zz: ENTER CHATROOM

FSHG4PEACE: But there are several rooms, guys

KCC1TIM: We need a link to get where we need to be

FSHG4PEACE: Somebody go there

Michl3282: TIM there is no Heart

Jeans Zz: TIM THERE IS NO HEART IN T HE AUDITORIUM :(

Michl3282: You have to follow JEANS INSTRUCTIONS

ForTKing: why not here?

KJVBK: James White is not currently signed on!!

FSHG4PEACE: He got punted too?

Orthopodeo: KJV: Yes I am.

CalDef: yes he is

Orthopodeo: I've been told the hacker has been "spoken to."

Sherimar: this is a farce

KCC1TIM: OK we have 23 here now and no snuggy

Orthopodeo: Tim, shall we give it another go?

I Coffee I: can we continue?

FSHG4PEACE: Just continue

KCC1TIM: YES

JasonTE: Let's continue here.

KCC1TIM: Let's continue

ForTKing: he bombed most of us here. click minimize as fast as you can if he does it again.

Orthopodeo: Tim: BTW, we can cut that middle garbage out of the log, right?

Ix0us: Lets do it!

KJVBK: SORRY.......ORTHOPODEO...is not currently signed on !! :)

FSHG4PEACE: Ok Fort, thanks.

KCC1TIM: James, the Proof is in the Scriptures

Orthopodeo: KJV: Well, I am, I assure you!

JPIPMPKP: KJ he is too

RCDEFENDER: KJVBK, YES he is that's just the message you get when IMs are shuit off

KCC1TIM: OK can everyone refrain from typing?

KJVBK: OK...James

JPIPMPKP: RCDEFENDER please mention to tos that he screwed up many people

JPIPMPKP: i had to take my phone off the hook in order

KCC1TIM: OK are we squared away on John 21 yet?

Orthopodeo: KCC: Yes, it is. Now, can we do this interactively, or shall we just do the

Orthopodeo: dueling text files? I mean, I have megs of stuff on my web page I could

Orthopodeo: dump in here, and you'd never be able to answer half of it in the time

JPIPMPKP: to get offline for a minute

Orthopodeo: alloted. So, how about we get interactive?

Orthopodeo: I believe we have presented our respective understandings of John 21.

Orthopodeo: Let's move on to Matthew 16.

KCC1TIM: I have important info for you to read,

KCC1TIM: You want mat 16?

Orthopodeo: Then give us a link to a web page. Everyone can get it at their leisure.

KCC1TIM: There is not a link for all, most I have written myself

Orthopodeo: I have certain things ready to upload, but they are short, pointed, and for

Orthopodeo: interaction, not long text files you can't possibly respond to.

Orthopodeo: All my stuff I wrote, too. :)

JasonTE: No long text files.

KCC1TIM: I feel it is necessary to give the history on certain things

Orthopodeo: Let's start with the passage itself. Shall I upload it, or you?

KCC1TIM: I have it ready thanks

Orthopodeo: So do I. In its place.

KCC1TIM: OK you first

JPIPMPKP: wait

JPIPMPKP: who is in charge tim

JPIPMPKP: no ccfs staff here

KCC1TIM: You are Jpip and Jason TE

Orthopodeo: OK, let's do it this way. I'd like to present my understanding of the

Orthopodeo: passage. Then you can present yours. How does that sound?

KCC1TIM: OK with me

FSHG4PEACE: I am sorry, I am supposed to moderate, and really cant right now

KCC1TIM: OOps sorry FSH

KCC1TIM: I didn;t know

FSHG4PEACE: RC? Can you?

RCDEFENDER: sure

KCC1TIM: OK Jason and RC

ForTKing: :o)

Orthopodeo: KCC: Will you upload the text, please?

KCC1TIM: Please James, begin

Orthopodeo: You said you had it ready.

KCC1TIM: Oh, OK

JPIPMPKP: well so much for me!!!

RCDEFENDER: JPIPMPKP, go right ahead

Orthopodeo: (Matthew 16:18-19) "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this

Orthopodeo: rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Orthopodeo: [19] "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you

Orthopodeo: bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on

JPIPMPKP: i am joking!!!

Orthopodeo: earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Orthopodeo: Hey, that worked better than I thought. :)

Orthopodeo: We are asked to believe that not only is the impetuous and frail Peter

Orthopodeo: made the very foundation of the Church itself in this passage, but that this

Orthopodeo: foundational position creates an office of Pope, and that in fact this office

Orthopodeo: involves successors, successors who will sit in the seat of bishop in the far

Orthopodeo: off city of Rome, 1500 miles distant---a monarchical bishopric that will not

Orthopodeo: develop for another 110 years!

Orthopodeo: The central theme of this passage is the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. Any

Orthopodeo: interpretation that takes the focus off of Jesus as Messiah is missing the

Orthopodeo: point. Jesus' questions to the disciples about the opinions of the

Orthopodeo: multitudes, and then their own viewpoints, are all directed toward His own

Orthopodeo: person, His own identity.

Orthopodeo: The subject of the passage remains the identity of Christ, found in the

Orthopodeo: confession of Peter. When the Lord says, "I tell you that you are Peter, and

Orthopodeo: on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hades will not overcome

Orthopodeo: it," the focus does not change. Jesus is not here speaking of the identity

Orthopodeo: of Peter; He is still talking about Himself and His Church. This is plainly

Orthopodeo: seen by continuing on through verse 20, where we read, "Then he warned

Orthopodeo: his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."

Orthopodeo: The rock of which the Lord speaks is that common confession made by all

Orthopodeo: who are part of the Church: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Orthopodeo: This is seen, I believe, in the fact that while the Lord is addressing Peter

Orthopodeo: directly, He changes from direct address to the third person, "this rock,"

Orthopodeo: when speaking of Peter's confession. He does not say, "upon you, Peter, I

Orthopodeo: will build my church."

Orthopodeo: Instead, you have a clear distinction between Peter, the Petros, and the

Orthopodeo: third person petra, the confession of faith, upon which the Church is built.

KCC1TIM: are you finished James?

Orthopodeo: Just a moment.

Orthopodeo: One of the key issues regarding the Roman interpretation of this passage

Orthopodeo: has to do with the fact that it is claimed that Peter ALONE is given the

Orthopodeo: keys in this passage. However, there is a fundamental problem here: the

KCC1TIM: please continue

Orthopodeo: verb "will give" (Greek: doso) is FUTURE in tense. Jesus gives no one

Orthopodeo: any keys or binding authority in this passage.

Orthopodeo: So, given that Jesus here only promises to give the keys to Peter in this

Orthopodeo: passage, when, in fact, did He do this? If one says that the Bible does not

Orthopodeo: record this event, this seems quite strange, for such would be a

Orthopodeo: foundational event in the history of the Church.

Orthopodeo: However, I believe the fulfillment of this promise is indeed found in the

Orthopodeo: Bible: in Matthew 18:18. The phraseology of binding and loosing is

Orthopodeo: *identical* to the wording in Matthew 16, except that here the pronouns are

Orthopodeo: in the plural form, rather than the singular. Here, the power of binding and

Orthopodeo: loosing is given to ALL the apostles *together.*

Orthopodeo: Now, I stand with the early church in stating that the power of the keys and

Orthopodeo: the power of binding and loosing are IDENTICAL CONCEPTS. Biblically,

Orthopodeo: historically, and logically, the keys and the power of binding and loosing

Orthopodeo: are the same thing, and, since that authority was given to ALL the Apostles

Orthopodeo: *equally* in Matthew 18:18, the Roman interpretation is seen to be in error.

Orthopodeo: OK, all yours.

Orthopodeo: Is my understanding of the thrust of the passage clear to you, Tim?

JPIPMPKP: tim is reading

KCC1TIM: Well that is certainly your opinion. However, I will prove to you

KCC1TIM: that your Greek translation is erroneous, you have used the

KCC1TIM: Nominitive case when in fact it is the DATIVE case. You

KCC1TIM: mentioned the Future tense

KCC1TIM: r, it is the Historic Present tense

Orthopodeo: No, dwsw is in the future tense, not the historic present. That is a basic

Orthopodeo: fact of Greek grammar.

KCC1TIM: and litterally says having been bound in the Heavens

KCC1TIM: and whaterever thou bindest on earth

Orthopodeo: dwsw is the future of didwmi.

KCC1TIM: It is a done deal when Peter speaks it.

Orthopodeo: Please identify the noun to which you refer.

KCC1TIM: I think you have it backwards

Orthopodeo: petra is in the dative (or locative, if you use the 8 case system).

KCC1TIM: Peter is the Subject of that sentence and everything refers to him

Orthopodeo: Tim, two ways to settle this. I can open BibleWorks 3.5 and paste out the

Orthopodeo: parsing of the verb for you; or, since I teach Greek regularly, you can take

Orthopodeo: my word for it.

Dashace: can we hear Tims view? without interuption?

Orthopodeo: Peter is the subject of the blessing, but the clause about building the

Orthopodeo: church is in reference to petra.

KCC1TIM: it litterally says "I will give you the Keys of the Kingdom of the

KCC1TIM: heavens and whatever that you bindest on the earth shall be

KCC1TIM: having been bound in the Heavens." It is a done deal

KCC1TIM: OK, Now let me show you:

Orthopodeo: Yes, you are referring to verse 19. Fine. It says "I WILL give." Future

Orthopodeo: tense. When did this happen, Tim?

JPIPMPKP: MR WHITE PLEASE WAIT

Cuchulan2: I'm INNNN!!!!

KCC1TIM: Matthew 16:18-20. Jesus and His Apostles were traveling through

KCC1TIM: the region of Ceasaria Philipi, when they came to rest at a place

Orthopodeo: JP: Polite interaction is within the rules, my friend.

KCC1TIM: at the headwaters of the Great River. No doubt the Apostles were

KCC1TIM: struck in

KCC1TIM: awe at the picturesque spectacle of God's handiwork, the massive

JPIPMPKP: CUCH please be quiet

KCC1TIM: rock formation beyond the river. While the Apostles gazed at the

KCC1TIM: breathtaking formation of rock, in the quietude of the moment,

KCC1TIM: Jesus seized the opportunity and asked, "Who do men say that I

KCC1TIM: am?" The Apostles answered, some say John the Baptist, Elijah,

KCC1TIM: one of the Prophets, etc. Then Simon bar (son of) Jona spoke up,

KCC1TIM: "You are the Christ!" It is this proclamation, revealed to the

KCC1TIM: fisherman by God our Father, therefore indicating he was chosen

KCC1TIM: by God, for greatness, that Our Blessed Lord made him His Vicar.

KCC1TIM: Jesus said: "And I say unto you, and tell you why I before

KCC1TIM: declared, (John 1:42) that YOU SHOULD BE CALLED PETER, for

KCC1TIM: you are constituted the Rock upon which, as a foundation, I will

KCC1TIM: build My Church," and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates

KCC1TIM: (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if

KCC1TIM: they overturn its foundation, (i.e. You and Your successors) they

KCC1TIM: will overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore

KCC1TIM: here Promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to

KCC1TIM: the end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors

KCC1TIM: and princes.

KCC1TIM: In the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus spoke, there is no

KCC1TIM: difference of genders, as in Greek and Latin, between petra, a

KCC1TIM: rock, and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the

KCC1TIM: allusion was both

KCC1TIM: more natural and more simple.

KCC1TIM: You are Peter and upon this Rock (i.e. upon You, according to the

KCC1TIM: literal and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I WILL BUILD

KCC1TIM: MY CHURCH.

KCC1TIM: It is true St. Augustine expounds these words, AND UPON THIS

KCC1TIM: ROCK, (i.e. upon Myself:) or upon This Rock, which Peter has