PowerChat:
PowerChat: *** Entered KCC on 9/20/97 at 20:06 ***
Wallmell: Welcome Mr White...
JPIPMPKP: We gathr tonight after much preparation to
debate Mr. James white over the papacy
JPIPMPKP: Dear mother as you speak so sweetly to Fr.
Gobbi and the Mrian fathers you express to them
JPIPMPKP: and to all your true concern for our own pope
John Paul II
JPIPMPKP: As all popes stand in place of your son, as
His
JPIPMPKP: Vicars, they are infallible when they speak
for the church and its doctrine
JPIPMPKP: WE ask tonight HUMBLY for part of this gift
of infallibility
JPIPMPKP: Although Blessed Jesus, we are unworthy to
beg for this gift, help us to use all TRUTH and W
JPIPMPKP: WISDOM when we speak and act for you.
JPIPMPKP: Let us not look toward success or failure,
but instead as an opportunity to spread the faith
JPIPMPKP: Tonight win or loose , we humbly stand
beneath your cross, with the blessed Mother
JPIPMPKP: and bleoved St. John.
JPIPMPKP: We draw strength from your broken and beaten
back, we grasp at your peirced hands and feet,
JPIPMPKP: and we seek comfort in your wounded side.
JPIPMPKP: Lonely as the journey may be, we pick up our
crosses and take our chances that we too may be
JPIPMPKP: be crucified for our knowledge of the TRUTH
JPIPMPKP: Bless us too with the gift of the Holy
Spirit, because we know you are with us
JPIPMPKP: since we are 2 or more gathered in your name
JPIPMPKP: Bless and keep TIM throughout this debate,
Send him the 12 apostles to surround him,
JPIPMPKP: and allow St Paul to enhance his reasoning
that he may always speak for you on these topics
JPIPMPKP: Put his angel behind him, and allow his angel
dear Jesus to comfort you with
JPIPMPKP: his words of yYour TRUTH
JPIPMPKP: Please add all other intentions at this time,
and i will close
Maria7595: God help me stop drinking and grow in faith.
RCDEFENDER: may the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, given to tim
at his Conformation,
RCDEFENDER: guide him tonight
Sherimar: ABBA, send forth your Spirit and infuse your
servant Tim
Sherimar: with the power to speak in Your most Holy
Name
FSHG4PEACE: Lord, for final peace and tranquility and to
always walk in your path.
KCC1TIM: James, please feel free to add your
petitions too, you are welcome here.
Maria7595: Good luck, Tim. May St. Michael protect you.
St Bede: Lord, sweet Jesus Lord of life, speak your
awesome Truth
St Bede: to our hearts this evening...
Michl3282: Amen
JPIPMPKP: anyone else wish tim luck??
ForTKing: may Jesus guide all that are here tonight
CCFSTiger: Everyone please turn on your logs if you have
not already
Sherimar: ABBA, let tonight 's debate be held in a
spirit of Truth and
Sherimar: Justice for the glory of your name
FSHG4PEACE: For Unity, as Christ and Our Blessed Mother
have wanted
Maria7595: Tiger, log?
Michl3282: Dear Holy Spirit surround this instrument of
faith and guide him
FSHG4PEACE: Log?
JPIPMPKP: WE Ask this in JESUS" name
CCFSTiger: If you wish to keep a copy of this debate,
please turn on your logs
CCFSTiger: amen
JPIPMPKP: AMEN!!!!!!!!!
RCDEFENDER: AMEN †
Sherimar: Amen
St Bede: †AMEN†
Maria7595: Tiger, done.
SI1VERSWAN: Amen
FSHG4PEACE: Have never done that before
StMary1954: how do you turn on logs?
Wallmell: Amen Amen Amen + † +
StMary1954: Anen
StMary1954: amen
ForTKing: Amen
FSHG4PEACE: Amen, and we say Amen
Maria7595: JPIP, that was a great prayer.
RCDEFENDER: CCFSTiger, I'm logging and it will be on my web
page right after the debate
Home2Rome: Amen
JPIPMPKP: thank you
CCFSTiger: :)
KCC1TIM: CCFSTIGER
will be our MODERATOR this evening
FSHG4PEACE: Jeanine, good prayer, really beautiful
JPIPMPKP: thank you
KCC1TIM: Thank
you Jeanine :)
FSHG4PEACE: Thanks Steve :-)
JPIPMPKP: MR white did you like it??
Maria7595: TIM, we need a Protestant moderator, too.
Sherimar: welcome CCFSTiger
CCFSTiger: Folks, for the sake of debate - only two people will be chatting, KCC1Tim and
CCFSTiger: Orthopodep
Orthopodeo: JPIP:
No, quite honestly, I didn't. That wasn't exactly meant to be a
Orthopodeo: non-partisan
prayer.
CCFSTiger: yes a protestant moderator will be nice
KCC1TIM: James,
please feel free to ask one of your friends to assist in moderating
Maria7595: Thanks. I'll shut up now. :-X
Wallmell: are we moving to the auditorium later? or is this the room?
KCC1TIM: This
is it Mell
Orthopodeo: Just
a moment, Tim.
Ramrei: can we up thre number of people allowed in the room?
CCFSTiger: when you have questions - please write them down and there
CCFSTiger: will be time later for answers
Orthopodeo: KCC:
JasonTE will help moderate. He's a friend of mine.
CCFSTiger: hello Jason
Maria7595: Ramrei, no. Sorry.
Michl3282: No Ramrei, its set
KCC1TIM: That
is agreeable to me
Wallmell: what is the maximum capacity of this room?
JasonTE: Hi!
CCFSTiger: 25
KCC1TIM: we
are full now Mell
Michl3282: 23
FSHG4PEACE: Tiger? Is there a way to make more room in here?
CCFSTiger: no sorry FSH
Michl3282: No Sue
ForTKing: 23 is the maximum number of people allowed
St Bede: What time will the debate actually begin. I just got done
St Bede: with the yard and Man, I neea shower
Ramrei: OK thanks anyway
FSHG4PEACE: Ok, but Steve you are logging on to your web page right?
CCFSTiger: Jason and I will attempt to keep both debators in a reasonable frame of tone :)
KCC1TIM: OK,
if you would like to begin 30 mins early, I am ready
Orthopodeo: A
word concerning the use of a private room: we had all thought an
Orthopodeo: auditorium
had been reserved. It wasn't. Hence, we either had to wait
Orthopodeo: three
weeks, or attempt this tonight.
RCDEFENDER: FSHG4PEACE, yes.
OS Matthew: Bede: please, otherwise we'll have to clear the room! ;-)
Orthopodeo: We
decided to go ahead and see if this will work. If it does, we can do the
Orthopodeo: auditorium
later.
Michl3282: Ortho, and Tim, good,
Maria7595: I think Ramrei should be allowed to contribute. She's very intelligent.
St Bede: OS I better go :0
JasonTE: Sounds good.
Orthopodeo: KCC:
Yes, the room is full, so there's no reason to wait.
Wallmell: Ok then since I invited over 150 people I will leave and let
Wallmell: someone else take my place....someone please forward
Wallmell: copy of log..thanks
CCFSTiger: debate with only 2 people
Michl3282: Maria, this is a debate between TIM and ORtho, ONLY
Orthopodeo: Wall:
My apologies.
KCC1TIM: Mine
too Mell
Orthopodeo: And
thanks for working so hard. :)
Wallmell: accepted Mr White and Tim! :) God bless you both!
ForTKing: yes, Maria, this is between Tim and Ortho all others need to wait
ForTKing: until they call it over.
CCFSTiger: †
JPIPMPKP: wall bye and blessigns
ForTKing: who are the mediators?
RR1981: I am in here I can't believe it
Michl3282: Tiger and?
CCFSTiger: I am a moderator and so is Jason
KCC1TIM: James,
I am the home team, would you like to go first?
Orthopodeo: Actually,
you are defending the thesis, hence, the person defending always
Orthopodeo: gets
to go first.
CCFSTiger: The debate is the Papacy - Tim
KCC1TIM: Very
well, thank you so much
KCC1TIM: First
a dedication
KCC1TIM: I
dedicate this Debate to Jesus in the Holy Eucharist and His
KCC1TIM: Mother,
the Blessed Virgin Mary. I also ask Our Blessed Lord
KCC1TIM: Through
the intecessions of Mary and the Saints and our Beloved
KCC1TIM: Mother
Teresa of Calcutta to open the eys of our separated
KCC1TIM: Brethren
and make this an invitation for them to come home.
KCC1TIM: It
is my objective to point out the veracity of the Catholic Church,
KCC1TIM: the
Church that was Founded by Jesus Christ, governed by His
KCC1TIM: Vicars,
the Popes Through the Ages.
KCC1TIM: My
opening Statment:
KCC1TIM: A
very pleasant good evening Mr. White and my brothers and
KCC1TIM: Sisters
in Christ! I am here to refute the false teachings and
KCC1TIM: erroneous
interpretations of James White concerning the Papacy.
KCC1TIM: I
firmly believe Mr. White, through no fault of his own, has been
KCC1TIM: lead
to believe these fallacies. They are based upon a man-made
KCC1TIM: Johnny-come-lately
doctrine stemming from 16th Century
KCC1TIM: anti-Christian
scholastics.
KCC1TIM: I
will prove that Jesus Christ, God, Himself Founded ONE Church,
KCC1TIM: the
Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is
KCC1TIM: mentioned
in the Apostles Creed, as first formally and publicly
KCC1TIM: defined
at the Council of Nicea in the year 325.
KCC1TIM: I
will show you exactly in the Sacred Scripture where Jesus
KCC1TIM: appoints
St. Peter to be his Vicar, the Pope. I will also show you
KCC1TIM: where
the Promise of this office was made, and the guarantee
KCC1TIM: given
by Christ Himself, for all eternity was made, that the gates
KCC1TIM: of
hell shall not prevail against His Church; and by the way neither
KCC1TIM: will
Mr. White. I will also share with you how this completes the
KCC1TIM: Prophesy
made in Daniel chapter 2. I will also correct the
KCC1TIM: misrepresentations
offered by the few anti-Catholic apologists,
KCC1TIM: including
Mr. James White, who try to argue Greek grammar and
KCC1TIM: syntax
to oppose the literal and fundamental reality of Christ's
KCC1TIM: teaching
for their own personal gain.
KCC1TIM: Jesus
Christ founded a New Covenant in His Body and Blood
KCC1TIM: which
replaced the Old Covenant of the Mosaic Sacrifice of the
KCC1TIM: Pentateuch.
I will show you in Scripture where God is referred to
KCC1TIM: as
Rock, as is Abraham, Jacob, and in the New Testament Peter;
KCC1TIM: all
of which are acting as God's personal representative or VICAR.
KCC1TIM: Many
people like Mr. White can claim the power of revelation
KCC1TIM: through
the Holy Spirit, but fewer have it. And as most of you are
KCC1TIM: well
aware of, Christ predicted this would happen. [Mat 7:15;
KCC1TIM: 24:11].
Furthermore, Christ knew and predicted many would NOT
KCC1TIM: understand
Sacred texts. He gave us a representative here on
KCC1TIM: earth
who would interpret and arbitrate disputes until He comes
KCC1TIM: again.
That is the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church
KCC1TIM: through
her Bishops collegially under the arbitration of the
KCC1TIM: Principal
Bishop, the Servant of the Servants of God, the Vicar of
Orthopodeo: EXCUSE
ME. Please slow down your scrolling.
KCC1TIM: Christ,
commonly referred to as the Pope.
KCC1TIM: Also
I will refute the Johnny-come-lately and non-Biblical and
KCC1TIM: man-made
allegations of Sola Scriptura, which have no doubt
KCC1TIM: confused
many and have led millions astray. Even Martin Luther,
KCC1TIM: on
his death bed, stated, "My God, what have I done, even
KCC1TIM: milk-maids
think they can interpret Scripture."
KCC1TIM: I
would also like to ask Mr. White why he claims the Power of the
KCC1TIM: Holy
Spirit in interpreting Sacred Scripture and denies bitterly that
KCC1TIM: same
power to the Vicar of Christ, the Pope. I would also like to
KCC1TIM: know
why Mr. White challenges the ordination and Apostolic
KCC1TIM: succession
of the Pope and at the same time asks us to accept
KCC1TIM: the
validity of his, i.e. Mr. White's ordination, (2 Corinthians
KCC1TIM: 11:13).
And why does Mr. White think Jesus gave St. Peter the
KCC1TIM: Keys
to the Kingdom of the Heavens {Matthew 16:18-19} and what
KCC1TIM: Scripture
passage can he cite that gave him, i.e. Mr. White, the
KCC1TIM: Keys
to the Kingdom of Heaven?
KCC1TIM: To
put this simply, it seems either Jesus Christ is a liar, or Mr.
KCC1TIM: White
is confused. When Jesus told Peter to feed His lambs and
KCC1TIM: later
His Sheep, He had previously warned them, the Apostles,
KCC1TIM: about
the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing. The Catholic
KCC1TIM: Church
was founded on a ROCK, I think Mr. White's sect was
KCC1TIM: founded
on sand, and the tide is coming. There are 28,000 sects
KCC1TIM: in
the world, all claiming By Faith Alone and Scripture Alone, and
KCC1TIM: they
are truly Alone. But Jesus Promised and guaranteed He
KCC1TIM: would
remain with us, the Catholic Church till the end of time, i.e.
KCC1TIM: in
the Holy Eucharist, fulfilling the Prophesy of Malachi 1:11; and
KCC1TIM: the
Catholic Church is NOT ALONE!
KCC1TIM: James
is my brother, though separated by protests of Doctrine,
KCC1TIM: we
share the same Baptism, the very attribute that makes us
KCC1TIM: Christians.
At the end of this evening I wish to extend to Mr.
KCC1TIM: White
and his friends an invitation to come home to the Church
KCC1TIM: that
Christ founded, the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I know I
KCC1TIM: can
hear the laughter now, but maybe by the grace of God and
KCC1TIM: throught
the Power of the Holy Spirit, we can settled all things
KCC1TIM: tonight.
God love ya!
Orthopodeo: HELLO?
Moderators? Please instruct KCC to slow his autoscrolling. It cannot be
Orthopodeo: read.
CCFSTiger: Tim- can you hold up/
CCFSTiger: now we will wait 2 mins for all to read
KCC1TIM: I
cannot control the speed, it is on the slowest setting, please scroll up and
read.
Fomvp: Hello everyone
CCFSTiger: hello Fomvp
CCFSTiger: anyone not finish reading?
ForTKing: done reading.
SI1VERSWAN: done
Ramrei: got it
RCDEFENDER: done
RR1981: done
Fomvp: didn't have anything to read....
Sherimar: done
StMary1954: done
Logos1611: done
Aomin: Done
CCFSTiger: fomvp contact rcdefendr after the chat
St Bede: ...
JasonTE: Only type to the screen if you AREN'T done. We can't check everybody's name on the list
CalDef: done
JasonTE: every time
CCFSTiger: Mr. White, I believe it is your turn
Orthopodeo: Thank
you all for being here this evening. I would like to state at the
Orthopodeo: beginning
that our topic tonight is not sola scriptura, the Mass, or anything
Orthopodeo: else....
It is the Papacy. I will remain focused upon that, and ask that Tim
Orthopodeo: do
the same thing. Secondly, I would like to ask Tim to refrain from
Orthopodeo: ad-hominem
attacks, as I will as well. Thank you.
Orthopodeo: 1.
The Roman Catholic Church claims that Peter is placed in a position of
Orthopodeo: primacy
by the Lord Jesus Himself. This primacy is one of honor,
Orthopodeo: jurisdiction,
and rulership.
Orthopodeo: 2.
This primacy given to Peter is presented, according to the dogmatic
Orthopodeo: teachings
of the Church of Rome, in Matthew 16:18-19 and in John
Orthopodeo: 21:15-17.
According to Roman teaching, Peter is the rock of Matthew 16;
Orthopodeo: that
Christ, in conferring a primacy upon Peter, intends this to be
Orthopodeo: understood
to apply to Peter's successors as well, and that hence Christ
Orthopodeo: is,
in this passage, instituting the office of the Pope (the Papacy) for the
Orthopodeo: Christian
Church.
Orthopodeo: Rome
further teaches that when Christ spoke to Peter and said "feed my
Orthopodeo: sheep,"
He was, by so doing, setting Peter apart as the pastor of all
Orthopodeo: Christians
in a way different from all the other apostles.
Orthopodeo: 3.
Peter is said to have been the bishop of Rome.
Orthopodeo: 4.
Because of this, his supposed primacy is passed on to his successors,
Orthopodeo: the
bishops of Rome.
Orthopodeo: 5.
And finally, this viewpoint has supposedly been the ancient and
Orthopodeo: constant
faith of the Christian Church. Supposedly the Church has always
Orthopodeo: believed
this to be true. Anyone who would express a different
Orthopodeo: perspective
is holding to perverse opinions, and are, in fact, anathema
Orthopodeo: (Vatican
I's wording).
Orthopodeo: Statement:
Therefore, it is incumbent upon the defender of Roman Catholic teaching
Orthopodeo: to
demonstrate the following:
Orthopodeo: 1)
Jesus is without question speaking to Peter in Matthew 16, and is in so doing
Orthopodeo: identifying
him as the rock upon which the Church is built.
Orthopodeo: 2)
That the words the Lord Jesus speaks establish Peter as the "prince of the
Orthopodeo: apostles,"
the very first pope, the head of the Christian Church.
Orthopodeo: 3)
That these words of Jesus necessarily indicate the creation of an office
Orthopodeo: of
Pope, replete with successors and the associated powers.
Orthopodeo: 4)
And finally, that the Christian Church has always held this to be her
Orthopodeo: constant
and unchanging faith.
Orthopodeo: We
must note that my opponent cannot merely demonstrate that the
Orthopodeo: Roman
position is probably true, or that it is likely to be true, but that it is
Orthopodeo: true
beyond question. Rome claims absolute authority in spiritual matters
Orthopodeo: over
all believers in Jesus Christ. She claims infallible teaching authority.
Orthopodeo: The
Papacy is not an issue upon which one can be neutral.
Orthopodeo: Pope
Boniface made this quite clear in the papal bull, Unam Sanctam promulgated
Orthopodeo: November
18th, 1302:
Orthopodeo: Consequently
we declare, state, define and pronounce that it
Orthopodeo: is
altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature
Orthopodeo: to
be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
Orthopodeo: Given
that there are only a handful of passages that can in any way be
Orthopodeo: construed
as relevant to the Papacy in the entire Bible, I suggest we spend
Orthopodeo: the
first hour discussing those passages, such as Matthew 16, John 21,
Orthopodeo: and
Luke 22 (as I did in _The Roman Catholic Controversy_, pp.
Orthopodeo: 113-118).
Then, in the second hour, we can address some of the
Orthopodeo: historical
evidence.
Orthopodeo: Thank
you.
JasonTE: Anybody not done reading?
Maria7595: I'm done.
KCC1TIM: Very
Well. I shall prove that Jesus Christ did in fact Appoint St.
KCC1TIM: Peter
to be His Vicar
KCC1TIM: Are
we ready?
CCFSTiger: Tim wait
Orthopodeo: Shall
we do the biblical evidence first, KCC?
CCFSTiger: ok - continue
KCC1TIM: Please,
I am ready when you are
CCFSTiger: Ok Tim
KCC1TIM: My
turn or James?
CCFSTiger: yours
KCC1TIM: I shall
begin with John 21
KCC1TIM: John
21: 15-17 "When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said
KCC1TIM: to
Simon Peter, Simon son of John do you love me more than
KCC1TIM: these?"
He said to Him, "Yes Lord, you know that I love You."
KCC1TIM: Jesus
said to him, "Feed My lambs." He then said to him a
KCC1TIM: second
time, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" He said to
KCC1TIM: Him,
"Yes, Lord, you know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed
KCC1TIM: My
lambs."
KCC1TIM: He
said to him a third time, "Simon son of John, do you love Me?"
KCC1TIM: Peter
was distressed that He had said to him a third time, "Do
KCC1TIM: you
love Me?" and he said to Him, "Lord, You know everything;
KCC1TIM: You
know that I love You. Jesus said to him, "Feed my Sheep."
KCC1TIM: The
question Christ asked, Do you love Me more than these,
KCC1TIM: meant
did Peter love Him more than any of the Apostles. Christ
KCC1TIM: puts
this question thrice to St. Peter, that triple protestation of
KCC1TIM: love,
might correspond to his triple denial. St. Peter did not
KCC1TIM: answer
that he loved Him more than the rest did, which he could
KCC1TIM: not
know, (no one knows the interior of another), but he modestly
KCC1TIM: says,
yes, Lord, You know that I love You: and the third time, You
KCC1TIM: know
all things, and the hearts of all men, You know how much I
KCC1TIM: love
You. At every protestation, Jesus answered feed My Lambs;
KCC1TIM: and
the third time, feed My Sheep. To Feed, in the style of the
KCC1TIM: Scriptures
is to Guide, Rule, and Govern.
KCC1TIM: As
to why Jesus said Simon son of John: The father's name is
KCC1TIM: added
to discriminate him from Simon Thaddeus, ( the Zealot),
KCC1TIM: that
Everyone might know that the Chief of the Universal Church
KCC1TIM: was
not given to any other Apostle but Peter. This Simon son of
KCC1TIM: John
is the same as Simon bar Jona.
KCC1TIM: St.
Peter had 3 times renounced his Master; and Jesus, to give
KCC1TIM: him
am opportunity of repairing his fault by a Triple confession,
KCC1TIM: three
several times demanded of him, if he loved him more than
KCC1TIM: these.
St. Augustine summed it up this way, "He who had thrice
KCC1TIM: denied
through fear, might thrice confess through Love."
KCC1TIM: The
lambs and Sheep of our Savior here mean the Faithful, who
KCC1TIM: compose
His Church, without any distinction of Jew or Gentile.
KCC1TIM: St.
Peter, by these words, is appointed to take charge of the
KCC1TIM: whole
flock, as being the Chief and Prince of the Apostles. He
KCC1TIM: is,
in some manner, the Pastor, not, only of the Sheep, but of the
KCC1TIM: Pastors
themselves. They each have their own flock to look after;
KCC1TIM: but
to Peter is committed the Care of ALL; He alone is the Pastor
KCC1TIM: of
all.
KCC1TIM: Our
Blessed Lord Promised the Spiritual Supremacy to St. Peter
KCC1TIM: (Matthew
16:19) and here He fulfills that Promise, by charging him
KCC1TIM: with
the superintendency of all his sheep, without exception; and
KCC1TIM: consequently
of his whole flock.
KCC1TIM: St.
Ambrose and some others take notice, as if by the lambs,
KCC1TIM: might
be understood the people, and the Sheep, those placed
KCC1TIM: over
the people, as Bishops and Priests. But others make no
KCC1TIM: such
difference in this place, between lambs and sheep, only as
KCC1TIM: comprehending
all the Members of Christ's Church, of what
KCC1TIM: condition
so ever, even the rest of the Apostles. For here it was
KCC1TIM: that
Christ GAVE to St. Peter that power which he had Promised
KCC1TIM: him,
in the region of Ceasaria Phillipi, (Matthew 16:18) that is,
KCC1TIM: Jesus
Christ NOW made Peter Head of HIS WHOLE CHURCH,
KCC1TIM: as
He had insinuated the first meeting, when St. Andrew brought
KCC1TIM: his
brother to Our Savior, When Christ CHANGED his name from
KCC1TIM: Simon
to Peter: again, when He chose him, and made him the
KCC1TIM: FIRST
of His 12 Apostles; but particularly, when He said to him,
KCC1TIM: Thou
art Peter, (a Rock) and upon this Rock I will Build My
KCC1TIM: Church.
KCC1TIM: Upon
this account the Catholic Church from the VERY FIRST
KCC1TIM: ages,
has ALWAYS reverenced, and acknowledged the Supreme
KCC1TIM: power
of the Successors of St. Peter, in spirituals, over all
KCC1TIM: Christian
Churches. This appears also by the writings of
KCC1TIM: Tertullian,
St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, of the greatest Doctors and
KCC1TIM: Bishops,
both East and West, of St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St.
KCC1TIM: John
Chrysostom, in several places, of the First General or
KCC1TIM: Ecumenical
Councils, Particularly of the Council of Chalcedon,
KCC1TIM: 451
A.D.
CCFSTiger: wait 3 mins for reading
KCC1TIM: When
you are finished, I shall next share with you 50 Biblical proofs.
Orthopodeo: I
do hope we end up having something more than "core dump text file"
Orthopodeo: wars.
I don't want to open the text files of my books (which I could do) and
Orthopodeo: just
upload what everyone else can read. I thought this was supposed to
Orthopodeo: have
interaction between the two of us.
KCC1TIM: It
is James, I just anticpated a few things, I assure you.
CCFSTiger: you may continue
KCC1TIM: James,
I am not just a truck driver you know. :)
Orthopodeo: For
example, if you wish to discuss John 21, let's discuss it first, before
Orthopodeo: going
on to Matthew 16. Then we can do Matthew 16.
KCC1TIM: Later,
the 50 Proofs first
Orthopodeo: No,
John 21 first.
JasonTE: Yes, complete John 21 first.
CCFSTiger: Tim - yes John 21 first
Orthopodeo: I
agree with the interpretation presented by Cyril regarding John 21:
Orthopodeo: If
anyone asks for what cause he asked Simon only, though the other
Orthopodeo: disciples
were present, and what he means by "Feed my lambs," and the
Orthopodeo: like,
we answer that St. Peter, with the other disciples, had been already
Orthopodeo: chosen
to the Apostleship, but because meanwhile Peter had fallen (for
Orthopodeo: under
great fear he had thrice denied the Lord), he now heals him that was
Orthopodeo: sick,
and exacts a threefold confession in place of his triple denial,
Orthopodeo: contrasting
the former with the latter, and compensating the fault with the
Orthopodeo: correction.
Orthopodeo: The
passage involves the Lord Jesus' *restoration* of Peter, not the *elevation* of
Orthopodeo: Peter
above anyone else.
Orthopodeo: The
three-fold question reflects the three-fold denial Peter had uttered,
Orthopodeo: nothing
more.
Orthopodeo: There
is nothing in the passage that suggests that Peter is given any kind
Orthopodeo: of
"primacy" at all, and it took centuries before anyone read that
concept
Orthopodeo: into
the passage.
KCC1TIM: Jesus
is clear as I have written, that He is personally making Peter the shepherd.
Orthopodeo: Peter
*A* shepherd, not THE shepherd.
Orthopodeo: "To
the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's
Orthopodeo: sufferings
and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be
Orthopodeo: shepherds
of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not
Orthopodeo: because
you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be;
Orthopodeo: not
greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those
Orthopodeo: entrusted
to you, but being examples to the flock."
Orthopodeo: Those
are Peter's own words, from 1 Peter 5:1. Notice he doesn't say
Orthopodeo: THE
elder, but a FELLOW elder.
Orthopodeo: If
you'd like to move to Matthew 16, there's a great deal there to cover.
KCC1TIM: The
three-fold question reflects both the 3-fold denial and strongly
KCC1TIM: emphasizes
Peter's humanity wil not interfere with his mission to
KCC1TIM: be
shepherd on earth. No. he does say fellow elder in a vauge
KCC1TIM: sense.
He is simply recognizing his fellow Bishops.
Orthopodeo: A
"vague sense"? I will allow the reader to judge of that terminology.
KCC1TIM: Let's
hold on with Mathew 16:18,
Orthopodeo: The
point is, Tim, that my interpretation of John 21 is not only textually
Orthopodeo: consistent,
but it is historical, as well. Yes, lets move on.
KCC1TIM: Vauge
terminology? That is what this is all about
KCC1TIM: OK,
the 50 Proofs.
Orthopodeo: The
simple fact is, Tim, that the Apostle Peter never calls himself THE
Orthopodeo: shepherd.
He calls himself a fellow elder.
KCC1TIM: 50
NEW TESTAMENT PROOFS FOR PETRINE PRIMACY AND
KCC1TIM: THE
PAPACY
Orthopodeo: Not
50 proofs in one fell swoop. That would be meaningless. One or two at a time,
KCC1TIM: The
Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically-based, and is
Orthopodeo: allowing
for dialogue and discussion.
KCC1TIM: derived
from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles.
KCC1TIM: Like
all Christian doctrines, it has undergone development through
KCC1TIM: the
centuries, but it hasn't departed from the essential
KCC1TIM: components
already existing in the leadership and prerogatives of
KCC1TIM: St.
Peter. These were given to him by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KCC1TIM: acknowledged
by his contemporaries, and accepted by the early
KCC1TIM: Church.
The biblical Petrine data is quite strong, and is
KCC1TIM: inescapably
compelling by virtue of its cumulative weight. This is
KCC1TIM: especially
made clear with the assistance of biblical
KCC1TIM: commentaries.
The evidence of Holy Scripture (RSV) follows:
KCC1TIM: 1.
Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock
KCC1TIM: I
will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail
KCC1TIM: against
it."
KCC1TIM: The
rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not
KCC1TIM: his
faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the
KCC1TIM: foundation,
but as the architect who "builds." The Church is built,
KCC1TIM: not
on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see, e.g., 1
KCC1TIM: Pet
2:5). Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority
KCC1TIM: of
all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the
KCC1TIM: traditional
Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as
KCC1TIM: the
foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior
KCC1TIM: of
the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy).
KCC1TIM: Moreover,
Rock embodies a metaphor applied to him by Christ in
KCC1TIM: a
sense analogous to the suffering and despised Messiah (1 Pet
KCC1TIM: 2:4-8;
cf. Mt 21:42).Without a solid foundation a house falls. St.
KCC1TIM: Peter
is the foundation, but not founder of the Church,
KCC1TIM: administrator,
but not Lord of the Church. The Good Shepherd
KCC1TIM: (John
10:11) gives us other shepherds as well (Eph 4:11).
KCC1TIM: 2.
Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of
KCC1TIM: heaven
. . ."
KCC1TIM: The
"power of the keys" has to do with ecclesiastical discipline
KCC1TIM: and
administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the
KCC1TIM: faith,
as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this
KCC1TIM: power
flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution,
KCC1TIM: baptismal
discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative
KCC1TIM: powers.
In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a
KCC1TIM: man
who is "over a house" (Gen 41:40; 43:19; 44:4; 1 Ki 4:6;
KCC1TIM: 16:9;
18:3; 2 Ki 10:5; 15:5; 18:18; Is 22:15,20-21).
KCC1TIM: 3.
Matthew 16:19 ". . . whatever you bind on earth shall be bound
KCC1TIM: in
heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in
KCC1TIM: heaven."
KCC1TIM: "Binding"
and "loosing" were technical rabbinical terms, which
KCC1TIM: meant
to "forbid" and "permit" with reference to the
interpretation
KCC1TIM: of
the law, and secondarily to "condemn" or "place under the
ban"
KCC1TIM: or
"acquit." Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority
KCC1TIM: to
determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation
KCC1TIM: and
the Spirit's leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from
KCC1TIM: the
Church. "Binding and loosing" represent the legislative and
KCC1TIM: judicial
powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn
KCC1TIM: 20:23).
St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these
KCC1TIM: powers
by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.
KCC1TIM: 4.
Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk
KCC1TIM: 3:16;
Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the "first"
KCC1TIM: (10:2).
Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.
TerryPax: Whew
Orthopodeo: Excuse
me, but there are dozens of problems already.
TerryPax: Peace all :-)
Michl3282: Excuse me, but the auditorium is open
Orthopodeo: We
must discuss them now, or they will be irrelevant.
PPascuzzi: POint of order Tim got punted
St Bede: oops...
FSHG4PEACE: Tim was punted
FSHG4PEACE: And
RCDEFENDER: people both KCC and CCFS tiger have been bounce from AOL,
RCDEFENDER: please make room for them to renter the room. thank you
FSHG4PEACE: The Audotorium is open
FSHG4PEACE: SO we may be leaving for another room
Winggglow: where
Michl3282: YES THE AUDITORIUM IS OPEN AND 34 THERE, CAN WE MOVE
Orthopodeo: What
auditorium?
ForTKing: where? what is the name of it?
Winggglow: how
Michl3282: Keyword Live
Maria7595: Please send me a link.
RCDEFENDER: the auditorium is for an other event not this one
Michl3282: USE KEYWORD - LIVE
I Coffee I: FSH can youi go there and we will link to you?
Michl3282: Steve is open CHAT there
FSHG4PEACE: Which one though Michl? I can go and link everyone, but there
FSHG4PEACE: are several
Ix0us: Is this where the sola scrptura debate is?
Michl3282: Wait BRB with Link
FSHG4PEACE: Ok
Michl3282: Oh Shoot I am afraid I will lose my place
Orthopodeo: Ix:
Papacy debate, but the Roman Catholic representative just got dumped.
I Coffee I: FSH,, if you go we can just click on your name
RCDEFENDER: PLEASE MAKE ROOM FOR CCFS TIGER AND KCC1TIM TOI RE-ENTER THIS ROOM
St Bede: Ortho odd...
Maria7595: I can serve as a backup if you like.
FSHG4PEACE: Okay, I am going to look for it. May not get back here.
Winggglow: just hiot keyword live but I do not think we can use it now
OS Matthew: Ortho: Is this a conspiracy! ;-)
OS Matthew: Ortho: sabotaged!
Fomvp: and Tim can't return til someone leaves... so, I shall do so.. Michl, please advise if you
Orthopodeo: St
Bede: :)
Fomvp: move to another room
PPascuzzi: I gueee the last two in should step out for moderator and debaters
I Coffee I: I willl leave tell me when Tim is back on so no one else gets this place
Orthopodeo: The
Jesuits must control AOL.
Michl3282: Okay Ann
Ramrei: LOLOL
OS Matthew: Ortho: Hey...many would be on your side in this debate!
Maria7595: I will leave under the condition that someone send me a log later.
Michl3282: There is no Link to room,
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, one could only hope LOL
OS Matthew: Ortho: A lotta libs.
FSHG4PEACE: What is the name of it Michl?
FSHG4PEACE: Name of the room?
RCDEFENDER: Maria, go to my home page .....I'll be send out a massive E-mail with the link
Michl3282: Okay I am leaving I will inform FSH of name
FSHG4PEACE: Ok Michl
PPascuzzi: Tim still hasn't made it back on line
Maria7595: Thanks, RC. I'm gone. Tell Tim I just made an opening.
Orthopodeo: Hey
Jason, you're in charge! Do something! LOL.
RCDEFENDER: Maria, ok :-0
JPIPMPKP: MR white this does happen to tim lately
RCDEFENDER: :-)
SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-By: FieRy Loaded
SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-Loaded 183 times!
Michl3282: Okay its Keyword Live then Live Events FFSH
RR1981: We are leaving to make room Rc please send us the link so we may read the log later
JasonTE: :)
RCDEFENDER: RR, OK
RR1981: thanks everyone God Bless
JasonTE: We can't do anything until Tim's back.
Michl3282: FSH, DID YOU ALL GET THIS ITS KEYWORD LIVE THEN LIVE EVENTS CC PEOPLE ARE THERE
ForTKing: is Tim back online?
SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-By: FieRy Pinter
SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-Room added....
TerryPax: Sorry I'm going to miss this -- is someone making a log?
OS Matthew: Jason: He is in AOL purgatory.
SNuGYoUSOB: ‹–•••¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-By: FieRy Pinter
TerryPax: I'd like one please -- I'll leave - I was in last I think
RCDEFENDER: TerryPax, the log will be on my home page
St Bede: SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUS
RCDEFENDER: {{{{{{{Tim}}}}}}}}}}}}}
KCC1TIM: I
am back and PLEASE NO IM's!
KCC1TIM: I
got punted because 5 people Imed me
KCC1TIM: Where
did M
KCC1TIM: Mr.
White go?
PPascuzzi: Room there is a hacker in the room
Orthopodeo: I'm
here. Someone is hacking us.
Sherimar: Steve leave your IM open to me..with no activity we may get punted
Sherimar: as wellSNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYo
RCDEFENDER: Tim type $im_off and hit the availbe buttom this will shut them off
Sherimar: SNUG JUST TRIED TO PUNT ME
Dashace: Sheri me as well
SNuGYoUSOB: Sorry =]
Michl3282: Tim you got punted cuz there is a punter here
Sherimar: SNUG leave the room
Orthopodeo: $im_off
ForTKing: Snugy you are in violation of TOS
ForTKing: you were bombing me
KCC1TIM: My
IM's are now off
PPascuzzi: Sheri same here
CalDef: good, Ortho.whenever you see MysticGold it is a "hacker"
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, yes but in your IM window were you put the persons name
SNuGYoUSOB: PPas called me a piece of sh__ hehehehe =]
Sherimar: I had my IMS blocked
Sherimar: to all except Steve
SNuGYoUSOB: My job here is done!
SNuGYoUSOB: Go about your business!
PPascuzzi: Sheri you also have to have buddy chats turned off BEFOR hacker starts up
CalDef: he just left
Michl3282: TIM< the Auditorium is open
KCC1TIM: Praise
God, shall we continue?
KCC1TIM: Where?
Sherimar: I just kept clicking them off
Michl3282: TIM< I am trying to get Link, hold on
KCC1TIM: Ok
ForTKing: where are we going?
KCC1TIM: James
I am sorry about this
Orthopodeo: KCC:
No problem. Not your fault.
Sherimar: anyway Steve leave IM open or we will get punted for
Sherimar: inactivity and we won't get the log
Michl3282: Keyword Live
KCC1TIM: Thanks
RCDEFENDER: people just KCC1TIM,and Orthopodeo, should be talking in room......thanks
KCC1TIM: Michele,
how are james and I to get there?
Michl3282: Steve, the auditorium has 34 waiting on TIM
KCC1TIM: That
will only allow us to observe
JasonTE: Somebody forced me offline. Is the debate moving to another room?
Orthopodeo: Tim:
However, I must ask that the format be adjusted here. I have megs of
Orthopodeo: files
I could upload, as you obviously do, too. Can we possibly focus more
Orthopodeo: on
interaction with one another?
Winggglow: I was forced off too
St Bede: Turn off your buddy chat
St Bede: I just got slammed
Michl3282: Jeansz Tell them how to get to the Auditorium
KCC1TIM: First
we must determine where it is we are going?
Jeans Zz: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{TIM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
FSHG4PEACE: we all have been. Very Christian.
CalDef: hacker is back
Jeans Zz: okay,, let me double check
KCC1TIM: Call
a Guide
CalDef: turn off IMs
I Coffee I: Snugy is the booter
FSHG4PEACE: Michl I couldnt get there
ForTKing: yes we need a guide
St Bede: FSH Yes, this happened to me when I went to Christian Fellowship
ForTKing: brb
FSHG4PEACE: Yes Coffee he is
Michl3282: FSH Jeans, is going to get Step by Step
KCC1TIM: Get
Snuggy this is costing me $$ I had to use the 800 number
PPascuzzi: guide is on the way
I Coffee I: turn off IMs $im_off
FSHG4PEACE: Ok
READER1022: SNUG: My friends are trying to chat here.
I Coffee I: then put in x in the body
FSHG4PEACE: Mine are going off
Winggglow: i called a guide
KCC1TIM: Thanks
Marie
Jeans Zz: TODAYS LIVE EVENTS
SNuGYoUSOB: READER =Ž
Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE
Orthopodeo: Tim:
< sigh > I'm afraid I need to suggest that we take CCFS's advice. I
Orthopodeo: don't
think idiots like SNuGY can do this while we are in an auditorium.
I Coffee I: Thanks Marie
Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE CHAT SCHEDULE
Jeans Zz: ENTER CHATROOM
SNuGYoUSOB: Ortho You nut
KCC1TIM: Ok
in 3 weeks then?
I Coffee I: Jeans it is full I was just there
JPIPMPKP: he did it to me
Orthopodeo: I
must say, though, that everyone behaved just fine up to then. :)
Jeans Zz: COFFEE :(
FSHG4PEACE: Geez.
JPIPMPKP: MR White you know this snug guy
Orthopodeo: But
before we do that, let's talk, openly, about the best way to do this in the
Orthopodeo: Pfuture.
Jeans Zz: let's keep trying,,they're just talking garbage in the auditorium,,polling etc
Orthopodeo: JPIP:
Are you kidding?
Winggglow: this is an outrage
RCDEFENDER: KCC1TIM, Orthopodeo, I can make a private room that no others can
JPIPMPKP: no who is he
RCDEFENDER: eneter. i'll log the debates there and post them for all to read. agreed/
FSHG4PEACE: Good idea. We need it to be scheduled, in a room where the punters
FSHG4PEACE: cannot take advantage
KCC1TIM: Jim,
I am game for a re-match, however, if you are up to it, we can continue now
SNuGYoUSOB: James is my BEST friend right james? =]
KCC1TIM: Snuggy
= {S jrkstore
KJVBK: KCC.......what happen to the debate?
Orthopodeo: Do
you think we can have a meaningful discussion with SNuGY in the room? You know
Orthopodeo: how
people like that are.
St Bede: Snuggy Truth hurts huh?
Winggglow: I do not
KCC1TIM: No
we need to dispose of him first
SNuGYoUSOB: I'm outta here
SNuGYoUSOB: Have fun arguing!!!
Michl3282: ORTHO the auditorium is free, do you and TIM want to try it?
Orthopodeo: They
will sit there nice and quiet when the Guide comes in, then poof, they
Orthopodeo: go
nuts as soon as the Guide leaves.
Jeans Zz: {{{{{{{Paul}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
CalDef: Ortho is correct
Orthopodeo: Michl:
I don't know how auditoriums work. If Tim is game, so am I.
I Coffee I: Snug has left the room : )
Michl3282: Okay Jeans tell them again how to get there
Winggglow: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ ^i^ TIM ^i^ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Orthopodeo: But,
Tim, let's discuss the format.
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, I'll be forwarding the log to TOS general. His days on
RCDEFENDER: AOL are now numbered
KCC1TIM: We
can get there, however we have no control to get in to where we type Michelwe
Jeans Zz: KEYWORD LIVE
Michl3282: PLEASE LISTEN TO JEANS IF WE WANT TO CONTINUE
Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE EVENTS
Winggglow: Amen Steve
Orthopodeo: RC:
Yeah, and he'll be back on under a new name in less than an hour. Sadly.
CalDef: RC, he'll have a different name in 10 minutes
KCC1TIM: We
wil only be in the chat rows which is useless
Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE SCHEDULE
Jeans Zz: ENTER CHATROOM
FSHG4PEACE: But there are several rooms, guys
KCC1TIM: We
need a link to get where we need to be
FSHG4PEACE: Somebody go there
Michl3282: TIM there is no Heart
Jeans Zz: TIM THERE IS NO HEART IN T HE AUDITORIUM :(
Michl3282: You have to follow JEANS INSTRUCTIONS
ForTKing: why not here?
KJVBK: James White is not currently signed on!!
FSHG4PEACE: He got punted too?
Orthopodeo: KJV:
Yes I am.
CalDef: yes he is
Orthopodeo: I've
been told the hacker has been "spoken to."
Sherimar: this is a farce
KCC1TIM: OK
we have 23 here now and no snuggy
Orthopodeo: Tim,
shall we give it another go?
I Coffee I: can we continue?
FSHG4PEACE: Just continue
KCC1TIM: YES
JasonTE: Let's continue here.
KCC1TIM: Let's
continue
ForTKing: he bombed most of us here. click minimize as fast as you can if he does it again.
Orthopodeo: Tim:
BTW, we can cut that middle garbage out of the log, right?
Ix0us: Lets do it!
KJVBK: SORRY.......ORTHOPODEO...is not currently signed on !! :)
FSHG4PEACE: Ok Fort, thanks.
KCC1TIM: James,
the Proof is in the Scriptures
Orthopodeo: KJV:
Well, I am, I assure you!
JPIPMPKP: KJ he is too
RCDEFENDER: KJVBK, YES he is that's just the message you get when IMs are shuit off
KCC1TIM: OK
can everyone refrain from typing?
KJVBK: OK...James
JPIPMPKP: RCDEFENDER please mention to tos that he screwed up many people
JPIPMPKP: i had to take my phone off the hook in order
KCC1TIM: OK
are we squared away on John 21 yet?
Orthopodeo: KCC:
Yes, it is. Now, can we do this interactively, or shall we just do the
Orthopodeo: dueling
text files? I mean, I have megs of stuff on my web page I could
Orthopodeo: dump
in here, and you'd never be able to answer half of it in the time
JPIPMPKP: to get offline for a minute
Orthopodeo: alloted.
So, how about we get interactive?
Orthopodeo: I
believe we have presented our respective understandings of John 21.
Orthopodeo: Let's
move on to Matthew 16.
KCC1TIM: I
have important info for you to read,
KCC1TIM: You
want mat 16?
Orthopodeo: Then
give us a link to a web page. Everyone can get it at their leisure.
KCC1TIM: There
is not a link for all, most I have written myself
Orthopodeo: I
have certain things ready to upload, but they are short, pointed, and for
Orthopodeo: interaction,
not long text files you can't possibly respond to.
Orthopodeo: All
my stuff I wrote, too. :)
JasonTE: No long text files.
KCC1TIM: I
feel it is necessary to give the history on certain things
Orthopodeo: Let's
start with the passage itself. Shall I upload it, or you?
KCC1TIM: I
have it ready thanks
Orthopodeo: So
do I. In its place.
KCC1TIM: OK
you first
JPIPMPKP: wait
JPIPMPKP: who is in charge tim
JPIPMPKP: no ccfs staff here
KCC1TIM: You
are Jpip and Jason TE
Orthopodeo: OK,
let's do it this way. I'd like to present my understanding of the
Orthopodeo: passage.
Then you can present yours. How does that sound?
KCC1TIM: OK
with me
FSHG4PEACE: I am sorry, I am supposed to moderate, and really cant right now
KCC1TIM: OOps
sorry FSH
KCC1TIM: I
didn;t know
FSHG4PEACE: RC? Can you?
RCDEFENDER: sure
KCC1TIM: OK
Jason and RC
ForTKing: :o)
Orthopodeo: KCC:
Will you upload the text, please?
KCC1TIM: Please
James, begin
Orthopodeo: You
said you had it ready.
KCC1TIM: Oh,
OK
JPIPMPKP: well so much for me!!!
RCDEFENDER: JPIPMPKP, go right ahead
Orthopodeo: (Matthew
16:18-19) "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this
Orthopodeo: rock
I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Orthopodeo: [19]
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you
Orthopodeo: bind
on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on
JPIPMPKP: i am joking!!!
Orthopodeo: earth
shall have been loosed in heaven."
Orthopodeo: Hey,
that worked better than I thought. :)
Orthopodeo: We
are asked to believe that not only is the impetuous and frail Peter
Orthopodeo: made
the very foundation of the Church itself in this passage, but that this
Orthopodeo: foundational
position creates an office of Pope, and that in fact this office
Orthopodeo: involves
successors, successors who will sit in the seat of bishop in the far
Orthopodeo: off
city of Rome, 1500 miles distant---a monarchical bishopric that will not
Orthopodeo: develop
for another 110 years!
Orthopodeo: The
central theme of this passage is the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. Any
Orthopodeo: interpretation
that takes the focus off of Jesus as Messiah is missing the
Orthopodeo: point.
Jesus' questions to the disciples about the opinions of the
Orthopodeo: multitudes,
and then their own viewpoints, are all directed toward His own
Orthopodeo: person,
His own identity.
Orthopodeo: The
subject of the passage remains the identity of Christ, found in the
Orthopodeo: confession
of Peter. When the Lord says, "I tell you that you are Peter, and
Orthopodeo: on
this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hades will not overcome
Orthopodeo: it,"
the focus does not change. Jesus is not here speaking of the identity
Orthopodeo: of
Peter; He is still talking about Himself and His Church. This is plainly
Orthopodeo: seen
by continuing on through verse 20, where we read, "Then he warned
Orthopodeo: his
disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."
Orthopodeo: The
rock of which the Lord speaks is that common confession made by all
Orthopodeo: who
are part of the Church: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Orthopodeo: This
is seen, I believe, in the fact that while the Lord is addressing Peter
Orthopodeo: directly,
He changes from direct address to the third person, "this rock,"
Orthopodeo: when
speaking of Peter's confession. He does not say, "upon you, Peter, I
Orthopodeo: will
build my church."
Orthopodeo: Instead,
you have a clear distinction between Peter, the Petros, and the
Orthopodeo: third
person petra, the confession of faith, upon which the Church is built.
KCC1TIM: are
you finished James?
Orthopodeo: Just
a moment.
Orthopodeo: One
of the key issues regarding the Roman interpretation of this passage
Orthopodeo: has
to do with the fact that it is claimed that Peter ALONE is given the
Orthopodeo: keys
in this passage. However, there is a fundamental problem here: the
KCC1TIM: please
continue
Orthopodeo: verb
"will give" (Greek: doso) is FUTURE in tense. Jesus gives no one
Orthopodeo: any
keys or binding authority in this passage.
Orthopodeo: So,
given that Jesus here only promises to give the keys to Peter in this
Orthopodeo: passage,
when, in fact, did He do this? If one says that the Bible does not
Orthopodeo: record
this event, this seems quite strange, for such would be a
Orthopodeo: foundational
event in the history of the Church.
Orthopodeo: However,
I believe the fulfillment of this promise is indeed found in the
Orthopodeo: Bible:
in Matthew 18:18. The phraseology of binding and loosing is
Orthopodeo: *identical*
to the wording in Matthew 16, except that here the pronouns are
Orthopodeo: in
the plural form, rather than the singular. Here, the power of binding and
Orthopodeo: loosing
is given to ALL the apostles *together.*
Orthopodeo: Now,
I stand with the early church in stating that the power of the keys and
Orthopodeo: the
power of binding and loosing are IDENTICAL CONCEPTS. Biblically,
Orthopodeo: historically,
and logically, the keys and the power of binding and loosing
Orthopodeo: are
the same thing, and, since that authority was given to ALL the Apostles
Orthopodeo: *equally*
in Matthew 18:18, the Roman interpretation is seen to be in error.
Orthopodeo: OK,
all yours.
Orthopodeo: Is
my understanding of the thrust of the passage clear to you, Tim?
JPIPMPKP: tim is reading
KCC1TIM: Well
that is certainly your opinion. However, I will prove to you
KCC1TIM: that
your Greek translation is erroneous, you have used the
KCC1TIM: Nominitive
case when in fact it is the DATIVE case. You
KCC1TIM: mentioned
the Future tense
KCC1TIM: r,
it is the Historic Present tense
Orthopodeo: No,
dwsw is in the future tense, not the historic present. That is a basic
Orthopodeo: fact
of Greek grammar.
KCC1TIM: and
litterally says having been bound in the Heavens
KCC1TIM: and
whaterever thou bindest on earth
Orthopodeo: dwsw
is the future of didwmi.
KCC1TIM: It
is a done deal when Peter speaks it.
Orthopodeo: Please
identify the noun to which you refer.
KCC1TIM: I
think you have it backwards
Orthopodeo: petra
is in the dative (or locative, if you use the 8 case system).
KCC1TIM: Peter
is the Subject of that sentence and everything refers to him
Orthopodeo: Tim,
two ways to settle this. I can open BibleWorks 3.5 and paste out the
Orthopodeo: parsing
of the verb for you; or, since I teach Greek regularly, you can take
Orthopodeo: my
word for it.
Dashace: can we hear Tims view? without interuption?
Orthopodeo: Peter
is the subject of the blessing, but the clause about building the
Orthopodeo: church
is in reference to petra.
KCC1TIM: it
litterally says "I will give you the Keys of the Kingdom of the
KCC1TIM: heavens
and whatever that you bindest on the earth shall be
KCC1TIM: having
been bound in the Heavens." It is a done deal
KCC1TIM: OK,
Now let me show you:
Orthopodeo: Yes,
you are referring to verse 19. Fine. It says "I WILL give." Future
Orthopodeo: tense.
When did this happen, Tim?
JPIPMPKP: MR WHITE PLEASE WAIT
Cuchulan2: I'm INNNN!!!!
KCC1TIM: Matthew
16:18-20. Jesus and His Apostles were traveling through
KCC1TIM: the
region of Ceasaria Philipi, when they came to rest at a place
Orthopodeo: JP:
Polite interaction is within the rules, my friend.
KCC1TIM: at
the headwaters of the Great River. No doubt the Apostles were
KCC1TIM: struck
in
KCC1TIM: awe
at the picturesque spectacle of God's handiwork, the massive
JPIPMPKP: CUCH please be quiet
KCC1TIM: rock
formation beyond the river. While the Apostles gazed at the
KCC1TIM: breathtaking
formation of rock, in the quietude of the moment,
KCC1TIM: Jesus
seized the opportunity and asked, "Who do men say that I
KCC1TIM: am?"
The Apostles answered, some say John the Baptist, Elijah,
KCC1TIM: one
of the Prophets, etc. Then Simon bar (son of) Jona spoke up,
KCC1TIM: "You
are the Christ!" It is this proclamation, revealed to the
KCC1TIM: fisherman
by God our Father, therefore indicating he was chosen
KCC1TIM: by
God, for greatness, that Our Blessed Lord made him His Vicar.
KCC1TIM: Jesus
said: "And I say unto you, and tell you why I before
KCC1TIM: declared,
(John 1:42) that YOU SHOULD BE CALLED PETER, for
KCC1TIM: you
are constituted the Rock upon which, as a foundation, I will
KCC1TIM: build
My Church," and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates
KCC1TIM: (i.e.
the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if
KCC1TIM: they
overturn its foundation, (i.e. You and Your successors) they
KCC1TIM: will
overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore
KCC1TIM: here
Promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to
KCC1TIM: the
end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors
KCC1TIM: and
princes.
KCC1TIM: In
the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus spoke, there is no
KCC1TIM: difference
of genders, as in Greek and Latin, between petra, a
KCC1TIM: rock,
and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the
KCC1TIM: allusion
was both
KCC1TIM: more
natural and more simple.
KCC1TIM: You
are Peter and upon this Rock (i.e. upon You, according to the
KCC1TIM: literal
and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I WILL BUILD
KCC1TIM: MY
CHURCH.
KCC1TIM: It
is true St. Augustine expounds these words, AND UPON THIS
KCC1TIM: ROCK,
(i.e. upon Myself:) or upon This Rock, which Peter has