PowerChat:
PowerChat: *** Entered KCC on 9/20/97 at 20:06 ***
Wallmell: Welcome Mr White...
JPIPMPKP: We gathr tonight after much preparation to
debate Mr. James white over the papacy
JPIPMPKP: Dear mother as you speak so sweetly to Fr.
Gobbi and the Mrian fathers you express to them
JPIPMPKP: and to all your true concern for our own pope
John Paul II
JPIPMPKP: As all popes stand in place of your son, as
His
JPIPMPKP: Vicars, they are infallible when they speak
for the church and its doctrine
JPIPMPKP: WE ask tonight HUMBLY for part of this gift
of infallibility
JPIPMPKP: Although Blessed Jesus, we are unworthy to
beg for this gift, help us to use all TRUTH and W
JPIPMPKP: WISDOM when we speak and act for you.
JPIPMPKP: Let us not look toward success or failure,
but instead as an opportunity to spread the faith
JPIPMPKP: Tonight win or loose , we humbly stand
beneath your cross, with the blessed Mother
JPIPMPKP: and bleoved St. John.
JPIPMPKP: We draw strength from your broken and beaten
back, we grasp at your peirced hands and feet,
JPIPMPKP: and we seek comfort in your wounded side.
JPIPMPKP: Lonely as the journey may be, we pick up our
crosses and take our chances that we too may be
JPIPMPKP: be crucified for our knowledge of the TRUTH
JPIPMPKP: Bless us too with the gift of the Holy
Spirit, because we know you are with us
JPIPMPKP: since we are 2 or more gathered in your name
JPIPMPKP: Bless and keep TIM throughout this debate,
Send him the 12 apostles to surround him,
JPIPMPKP: and allow St Paul to enhance his reasoning
that he may always speak for you on these topics
JPIPMPKP: Put his angel behind him, and allow his angel
dear Jesus to comfort you with
JPIPMPKP: his words of yYour TRUTH
JPIPMPKP: Please add all other intentions at this time,
and i will close
Maria7595: God help me stop drinking and grow in faith.
RCDEFENDER: may the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, given to tim
at his Conformation,
RCDEFENDER: guide him tonight
Sherimar: ABBA, send forth your Spirit and infuse your
servant Tim
Sherimar: with the power to speak in Your most Holy
Name
FSHG4PEACE: Lord, for final peace and tranquility and to
always walk in your path.
KCC1TIM: James, please feel free to add your
petitions too, you are welcome here.
Maria7595: Good luck, Tim. May St. Michael protect you.
St Bede: Lord, sweet Jesus Lord of life, speak your
awesome Truth
St Bede: to our hearts this evening...
Michl3282: Amen
JPIPMPKP: anyone else wish tim luck??
ForTKing: may Jesus guide all that are here tonight
CCFSTiger: Everyone please turn on your logs if you have
not already
Sherimar: ABBA, let tonight 's debate be held in a
spirit of Truth and
Sherimar: Justice for the glory of your name
FSHG4PEACE: For Unity, as Christ and Our Blessed Mother
have wanted
Maria7595: Tiger, log?
Michl3282: Dear Holy Spirit surround this instrument of
faith and guide him
FSHG4PEACE: Log?
JPIPMPKP: WE Ask this in JESUS" name
CCFSTiger: If you wish to keep a copy of this debate,
please turn on your logs
CCFSTiger: amen
JPIPMPKP: AMEN!!!!!!!!!
RCDEFENDER: AMEN
Sherimar: Amen
St Bede: AMEN
Maria7595: Tiger, done.
SI1VERSWAN: Amen
FSHG4PEACE: Have never done that before
StMary1954: how do you turn on logs?
Wallmell: Amen Amen Amen + +
StMary1954: Anen
StMary1954: amen
ForTKing: Amen
FSHG4PEACE: Amen, and we say Amen
Maria7595: JPIP, that was a great prayer.
RCDEFENDER: CCFSTiger, I'm logging and it will be on my web
page right after the debate
Home2Rome: Amen
JPIPMPKP: thank you
CCFSTiger: :)
KCC1TIM: CCFSTIGER
will be our MODERATOR this evening
FSHG4PEACE: Jeanine, good prayer, really beautiful
JPIPMPKP: thank you
KCC1TIM: Thank
you Jeanine :)
FSHG4PEACE: Thanks Steve :-)
JPIPMPKP: MR white did you like it??
Maria7595: TIM, we need a Protestant moderator, too.
Sherimar: welcome CCFSTiger
CCFSTiger: Folks, for the sake of debate - only two people will be chatting, KCC1Tim and
CCFSTiger: Orthopodep
Orthopodeo: JPIP:
No, quite honestly, I didn't. That wasn't exactly meant to be a
Orthopodeo: non-partisan
prayer.
CCFSTiger: yes a protestant moderator will be nice
KCC1TIM: James,
please feel free to ask one of your friends to assist in moderating
Maria7595: Thanks. I'll shut up now. :-X
Wallmell: are we moving to the auditorium later? or is this the room?
KCC1TIM: This
is it Mell
Orthopodeo: Just
a moment, Tim.
Ramrei: can we up thre number of people allowed in the room?
CCFSTiger: when you have questions - please write them down and there
CCFSTiger: will be time later for answers
Orthopodeo: KCC:
JasonTE will help moderate. He's a friend of mine.
CCFSTiger: hello Jason
Maria7595: Ramrei, no. Sorry.
Michl3282: No Ramrei, its set
KCC1TIM: That
is agreeable to me
Wallmell: what is the maximum capacity of this room?
JasonTE: Hi!
CCFSTiger: 25
KCC1TIM: we
are full now Mell
Michl3282: 23
FSHG4PEACE: Tiger? Is there a way to make more room in here?
CCFSTiger: no sorry FSH
Michl3282: No Sue
ForTKing: 23 is the maximum number of people allowed
St Bede: What time will the debate actually begin. I just got done
St Bede: with the yard and Man, I neea shower
Ramrei: OK thanks anyway
FSHG4PEACE: Ok, but Steve you are logging on to your web page right?
CCFSTiger: Jason and I will attempt to keep both debators in a reasonable frame of tone :)
KCC1TIM: OK,
if you would like to begin 30 mins early, I am ready
Orthopodeo: A
word concerning the use of a private room: we had all thought an
Orthopodeo: auditorium
had been reserved. It wasn't. Hence, we either had to wait
Orthopodeo: three
weeks, or attempt this tonight.
RCDEFENDER: FSHG4PEACE, yes.
OS Matthew: Bede: please, otherwise we'll have to clear the room! ;-)
Orthopodeo: We
decided to go ahead and see if this will work. If it does, we can do the
Orthopodeo: auditorium
later.
Michl3282: Ortho, and Tim, good,
Maria7595: I think Ramrei should be allowed to contribute. She's very intelligent.
St Bede: OS I better go :0
JasonTE: Sounds good.
Orthopodeo: KCC:
Yes, the room is full, so there's no reason to wait.
Wallmell: Ok then since I invited over 150 people I will leave and let
Wallmell: someone else take my place....someone please forward
Wallmell: copy of log..thanks
CCFSTiger: debate with only 2 people
Michl3282: Maria, this is a debate between TIM and ORtho, ONLY
Orthopodeo: Wall:
My apologies.
KCC1TIM: Mine
too Mell
Orthopodeo: And
thanks for working so hard. :)
Wallmell: accepted Mr White and Tim! :) God bless you both!
ForTKing: yes, Maria, this is between Tim and Ortho all others need to wait
ForTKing: until they call it over.
CCFSTiger:
JPIPMPKP: wall bye and blessigns
ForTKing: who are the mediators?
RR1981: I am in here I can't believe it
Michl3282: Tiger and?
CCFSTiger: I am a moderator and so is Jason
KCC1TIM: James,
I am the home team, would you like to go first?
Orthopodeo: Actually,
you are defending the thesis, hence, the person defending always
Orthopodeo: gets
to go first.
CCFSTiger: The debate is the Papacy - Tim
KCC1TIM: Very
well, thank you so much
KCC1TIM: First
a dedication
KCC1TIM: I
dedicate this Debate to Jesus in the Holy Eucharist and His
KCC1TIM: Mother,
the Blessed Virgin Mary. I also ask Our Blessed Lord
KCC1TIM: Through
the intecessions of Mary and the Saints and our Beloved
KCC1TIM: Mother
Teresa of Calcutta to open the eys of our separated
KCC1TIM: Brethren
and make this an invitation for them to come home.
KCC1TIM: It
is my objective to point out the veracity of the Catholic Church,
KCC1TIM: the
Church that was Founded by Jesus Christ, governed by His
KCC1TIM: Vicars,
the Popes Through the Ages.
KCC1TIM: My
opening Statment:
KCC1TIM: A
very pleasant good evening Mr. White and my brothers and
KCC1TIM: Sisters
in Christ! I am here to refute the false teachings and
KCC1TIM: erroneous
interpretations of James White concerning the Papacy.
KCC1TIM: I
firmly believe Mr. White, through no fault of his own, has been
KCC1TIM: lead
to believe these fallacies. They are based upon a man-made
KCC1TIM: Johnny-come-lately
doctrine stemming from 16th Century
KCC1TIM: anti-Christian
scholastics.
KCC1TIM: I
will prove that Jesus Christ, God, Himself Founded ONE Church,
KCC1TIM: the
Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is
KCC1TIM: mentioned
in the Apostles Creed, as first formally and publicly
KCC1TIM: defined
at the Council of Nicea in the year 325.
KCC1TIM: I
will show you exactly in the Sacred Scripture where Jesus
KCC1TIM: appoints
St. Peter to be his Vicar, the Pope. I will also show you
KCC1TIM: where
the Promise of this office was made, and the guarantee
KCC1TIM: given
by Christ Himself, for all eternity was made, that the gates
KCC1TIM: of
hell shall not prevail against His Church; and by the way neither
KCC1TIM: will
Mr. White. I will also share with you how this completes the
KCC1TIM: Prophesy
made in Daniel chapter 2. I will also correct the
KCC1TIM: misrepresentations
offered by the few anti-Catholic apologists,
KCC1TIM: including
Mr. James White, who try to argue Greek grammar and
KCC1TIM: syntax
to oppose the literal and fundamental reality of Christ's
KCC1TIM: teaching
for their own personal gain.
KCC1TIM: Jesus
Christ founded a New Covenant in His Body and Blood
KCC1TIM: which
replaced the Old Covenant of the Mosaic Sacrifice of the
KCC1TIM: Pentateuch.
I will show you in Scripture where God is referred to
KCC1TIM: as
Rock, as is Abraham, Jacob, and in the New Testament Peter;
KCC1TIM: all
of which are acting as God's personal representative or VICAR.
KCC1TIM: Many
people like Mr. White can claim the power of revelation
KCC1TIM: through
the Holy Spirit, but fewer have it. And as most of you are
KCC1TIM: well
aware of, Christ predicted this would happen. [Mat 7:15;
KCC1TIM: 24:11].
Furthermore, Christ knew and predicted many would NOT
KCC1TIM: understand
Sacred texts. He gave us a representative here on
KCC1TIM: earth
who would interpret and arbitrate disputes until He comes
KCC1TIM: again.
That is the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church
KCC1TIM: through
her Bishops collegially under the arbitration of the
KCC1TIM: Principal
Bishop, the Servant of the Servants of God, the Vicar of
Orthopodeo: EXCUSE
ME. Please slow down your scrolling.
KCC1TIM: Christ,
commonly referred to as the Pope.
KCC1TIM: Also
I will refute the Johnny-come-lately and non-Biblical and
KCC1TIM: man-made
allegations of Sola Scriptura, which have no doubt
KCC1TIM: confused
many and have led millions astray. Even Martin Luther,
KCC1TIM: on
his death bed, stated, "My God, what have I done, even
KCC1TIM: milk-maids
think they can interpret Scripture."
KCC1TIM: I
would also like to ask Mr. White why he claims the Power of the
KCC1TIM: Holy
Spirit in interpreting Sacred Scripture and denies bitterly that
KCC1TIM: same
power to the Vicar of Christ, the Pope. I would also like to
KCC1TIM: know
why Mr. White challenges the ordination and Apostolic
KCC1TIM: succession
of the Pope and at the same time asks us to accept
KCC1TIM: the
validity of his, i.e. Mr. White's ordination, (2 Corinthians
KCC1TIM: 11:13).
And why does Mr. White think Jesus gave St. Peter the
KCC1TIM: Keys
to the Kingdom of the Heavens {Matthew 16:18-19} and what
KCC1TIM: Scripture
passage can he cite that gave him, i.e. Mr. White, the
KCC1TIM: Keys
to the Kingdom of Heaven?
KCC1TIM: To
put this simply, it seems either Jesus Christ is a liar, or Mr.
KCC1TIM: White
is confused. When Jesus told Peter to feed His lambs and
KCC1TIM: later
His Sheep, He had previously warned them, the Apostles,
KCC1TIM: about
the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing. The Catholic
KCC1TIM: Church
was founded on a ROCK, I think Mr. White's sect was
KCC1TIM: founded
on sand, and the tide is coming. There are 28,000 sects
KCC1TIM: in
the world, all claiming By Faith Alone and Scripture Alone, and
KCC1TIM: they
are truly Alone. But Jesus Promised and guaranteed He
KCC1TIM: would
remain with us, the Catholic Church till the end of time, i.e.
KCC1TIM: in
the Holy Eucharist, fulfilling the Prophesy of Malachi 1:11; and
KCC1TIM: the
Catholic Church is NOT ALONE!
KCC1TIM: James
is my brother, though separated by protests of Doctrine,
KCC1TIM: we
share the same Baptism, the very attribute that makes us
KCC1TIM: Christians.
At the end of this evening I wish to extend to Mr.
KCC1TIM: White
and his friends an invitation to come home to the Church
KCC1TIM: that
Christ founded, the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I know I
KCC1TIM: can
hear the laughter now, but maybe by the grace of God and
KCC1TIM: throught
the Power of the Holy Spirit, we can settled all things
KCC1TIM: tonight.
God love ya!
Orthopodeo: HELLO?
Moderators? Please instruct KCC to slow his autoscrolling. It cannot be
Orthopodeo: read.
CCFSTiger: Tim- can you hold up/
CCFSTiger: now we will wait 2 mins for all to read
KCC1TIM: I
cannot control the speed, it is on the slowest setting, please scroll up and
read.
Fomvp: Hello everyone
CCFSTiger: hello Fomvp
CCFSTiger: anyone not finish reading?
ForTKing: done reading.
SI1VERSWAN: done
Ramrei: got it
RCDEFENDER: done
RR1981: done
Fomvp: didn't have anything to read....
Sherimar: done
StMary1954: done
Logos1611: done
Aomin: Done
CCFSTiger: fomvp contact rcdefendr after the chat
St Bede: ...
JasonTE: Only type to the screen if you AREN'T done. We can't check everybody's name on the list
CalDef: done
JasonTE: every time
CCFSTiger: Mr. White, I believe it is your turn
Orthopodeo: Thank
you all for being here this evening. I would like to state at the
Orthopodeo: beginning
that our topic tonight is not sola scriptura, the Mass, or anything
Orthopodeo: else....
It is the Papacy. I will remain focused upon that, and ask that Tim
Orthopodeo: do
the same thing. Secondly, I would like to ask Tim to refrain from
Orthopodeo: ad-hominem
attacks, as I will as well. Thank you.
Orthopodeo: 1.
The Roman Catholic Church claims that Peter is placed in a position of
Orthopodeo: primacy
by the Lord Jesus Himself. This primacy is one of honor,
Orthopodeo: jurisdiction,
and rulership.
Orthopodeo: 2.
This primacy given to Peter is presented, according to the dogmatic
Orthopodeo: teachings
of the Church of Rome, in Matthew 16:18-19 and in John
Orthopodeo: 21:15-17.
According to Roman teaching, Peter is the rock of Matthew 16;
Orthopodeo: that
Christ, in conferring a primacy upon Peter, intends this to be
Orthopodeo: understood
to apply to Peter's successors as well, and that hence Christ
Orthopodeo: is,
in this passage, instituting the office of the Pope (the Papacy) for the
Orthopodeo: Christian
Church.
Orthopodeo: Rome
further teaches that when Christ spoke to Peter and said "feed my
Orthopodeo: sheep,"
He was, by so doing, setting Peter apart as the pastor of all
Orthopodeo: Christians
in a way different from all the other apostles.
Orthopodeo: 3.
Peter is said to have been the bishop of Rome.
Orthopodeo: 4.
Because of this, his supposed primacy is passed on to his successors,
Orthopodeo: the
bishops of Rome.
Orthopodeo: 5.
And finally, this viewpoint has supposedly been the ancient and
Orthopodeo: constant
faith of the Christian Church. Supposedly the Church has always
Orthopodeo: believed
this to be true. Anyone who would express a different
Orthopodeo: perspective
is holding to perverse opinions, and are, in fact, anathema
Orthopodeo: (Vatican
I's wording).
Orthopodeo: Statement:
Therefore, it is incumbent upon the defender of Roman Catholic teaching
Orthopodeo: to
demonstrate the following:
Orthopodeo: 1)
Jesus is without question speaking to Peter in Matthew 16, and is in so doing
Orthopodeo: identifying
him as the rock upon which the Church is built.
Orthopodeo: 2)
That the words the Lord Jesus speaks establish Peter as the "prince of the
Orthopodeo: apostles,"
the very first pope, the head of the Christian Church.
Orthopodeo: 3)
That these words of Jesus necessarily indicate the creation of an office
Orthopodeo: of
Pope, replete with successors and the associated powers.
Orthopodeo: 4)
And finally, that the Christian Church has always held this to be her
Orthopodeo: constant
and unchanging faith.
Orthopodeo: We
must note that my opponent cannot merely demonstrate that the
Orthopodeo: Roman
position is probably true, or that it is likely to be true, but that it is
Orthopodeo: true
beyond question. Rome claims absolute authority in spiritual matters
Orthopodeo: over
all believers in Jesus Christ. She claims infallible teaching authority.
Orthopodeo: The
Papacy is not an issue upon which one can be neutral.
Orthopodeo: Pope
Boniface made this quite clear in the papal bull, Unam Sanctam promulgated
Orthopodeo: November
18th, 1302:
Orthopodeo: Consequently
we declare, state, define and pronounce that it
Orthopodeo: is
altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature
Orthopodeo: to
be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
Orthopodeo: Given
that there are only a handful of passages that can in any way be
Orthopodeo: construed
as relevant to the Papacy in the entire Bible, I suggest we spend
Orthopodeo: the
first hour discussing those passages, such as Matthew 16, John 21,
Orthopodeo: and
Luke 22 (as I did in _The Roman Catholic Controversy_, pp.
Orthopodeo: 113-118).
Then, in the second hour, we can address some of the
Orthopodeo: historical
evidence.
Orthopodeo: Thank
you.
JasonTE: Anybody not done reading?
Maria7595: I'm done.
KCC1TIM: Very
Well. I shall prove that Jesus Christ did in fact Appoint St.
KCC1TIM: Peter
to be His Vicar
KCC1TIM: Are
we ready?
CCFSTiger: Tim wait
Orthopodeo: Shall
we do the biblical evidence first, KCC?
CCFSTiger: ok - continue
KCC1TIM: Please,
I am ready when you are
CCFSTiger: Ok Tim
KCC1TIM: My
turn or James?
CCFSTiger: yours
KCC1TIM: I shall
begin with John 21
KCC1TIM: John
21: 15-17 "When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said
KCC1TIM: to
Simon Peter, Simon son of John do you love me more than
KCC1TIM: these?"
He said to Him, "Yes Lord, you know that I love You."
KCC1TIM: Jesus
said to him, "Feed My lambs." He then said to him a
KCC1TIM: second
time, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" He said to
KCC1TIM: Him,
"Yes, Lord, you know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed
KCC1TIM: My
lambs."
KCC1TIM: He
said to him a third time, "Simon son of John, do you love Me?"
KCC1TIM: Peter
was distressed that He had said to him a third time, "Do
KCC1TIM: you
love Me?" and he said to Him, "Lord, You know everything;
KCC1TIM: You
know that I love You. Jesus said to him, "Feed my Sheep."
KCC1TIM: The
question Christ asked, Do you love Me more than these,
KCC1TIM: meant
did Peter love Him more than any of the Apostles. Christ
KCC1TIM: puts
this question thrice to St. Peter, that triple protestation of
KCC1TIM: love,
might correspond to his triple denial. St. Peter did not
KCC1TIM: answer
that he loved Him more than the rest did, which he could
KCC1TIM: not
know, (no one knows the interior of another), but he modestly
KCC1TIM: says,
yes, Lord, You know that I love You: and the third time, You
KCC1TIM: know
all things, and the hearts of all men, You know how much I
KCC1TIM: love
You. At every protestation, Jesus answered feed My Lambs;
KCC1TIM: and
the third time, feed My Sheep. To Feed, in the style of the
KCC1TIM: Scriptures
is to Guide, Rule, and Govern.
KCC1TIM: As
to why Jesus said Simon son of John: The father's name is
KCC1TIM: added
to discriminate him from Simon Thaddeus, ( the Zealot),
KCC1TIM: that
Everyone might know that the Chief of the Universal Church
KCC1TIM: was
not given to any other Apostle but Peter. This Simon son of
KCC1TIM: John
is the same as Simon bar Jona.
KCC1TIM: St.
Peter had 3 times renounced his Master; and Jesus, to give
KCC1TIM: him
am opportunity of repairing his fault by a Triple confession,
KCC1TIM: three
several times demanded of him, if he loved him more than
KCC1TIM: these.
St. Augustine summed it up this way, "He who had thrice
KCC1TIM: denied
through fear, might thrice confess through Love."
KCC1TIM: The
lambs and Sheep of our Savior here mean the Faithful, who
KCC1TIM: compose
His Church, without any distinction of Jew or Gentile.
KCC1TIM: St.
Peter, by these words, is appointed to take charge of the
KCC1TIM: whole
flock, as being the Chief and Prince of the Apostles. He
KCC1TIM: is,
in some manner, the Pastor, not, only of the Sheep, but of the
KCC1TIM: Pastors
themselves. They each have their own flock to look after;
KCC1TIM: but
to Peter is committed the Care of ALL; He alone is the Pastor
KCC1TIM: of
all.
KCC1TIM: Our
Blessed Lord Promised the Spiritual Supremacy to St. Peter
KCC1TIM: (Matthew
16:19) and here He fulfills that Promise, by charging him
KCC1TIM: with
the superintendency of all his sheep, without exception; and
KCC1TIM: consequently
of his whole flock.
KCC1TIM: St.
Ambrose and some others take notice, as if by the lambs,
KCC1TIM: might
be understood the people, and the Sheep, those placed
KCC1TIM: over
the people, as Bishops and Priests. But others make no
KCC1TIM: such
difference in this place, between lambs and sheep, only as
KCC1TIM: comprehending
all the Members of Christ's Church, of what
KCC1TIM: condition
so ever, even the rest of the Apostles. For here it was
KCC1TIM: that
Christ GAVE to St. Peter that power which he had Promised
KCC1TIM: him,
in the region of Ceasaria Phillipi, (Matthew 16:18) that is,
KCC1TIM: Jesus
Christ NOW made Peter Head of HIS WHOLE CHURCH,
KCC1TIM: as
He had insinuated the first meeting, when St. Andrew brought
KCC1TIM: his
brother to Our Savior, When Christ CHANGED his name from
KCC1TIM: Simon
to Peter: again, when He chose him, and made him the
KCC1TIM: FIRST
of His 12 Apostles; but particularly, when He said to him,
KCC1TIM: Thou
art Peter, (a Rock) and upon this Rock I will Build My
KCC1TIM: Church.
KCC1TIM: Upon
this account the Catholic Church from the VERY FIRST
KCC1TIM: ages,
has ALWAYS reverenced, and acknowledged the Supreme
KCC1TIM: power
of the Successors of St. Peter, in spirituals, over all
KCC1TIM: Christian
Churches. This appears also by the writings of
KCC1TIM: Tertullian,
St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, of the greatest Doctors and
KCC1TIM: Bishops,
both East and West, of St. Jerome, St. Augustine, St.
KCC1TIM: John
Chrysostom, in several places, of the First General or
KCC1TIM: Ecumenical
Councils, Particularly of the Council of Chalcedon,
KCC1TIM: 451
A.D.
CCFSTiger: wait 3 mins for reading
KCC1TIM: When
you are finished, I shall next share with you 50 Biblical proofs.
Orthopodeo: I
do hope we end up having something more than "core dump text file"
Orthopodeo: wars.
I don't want to open the text files of my books (which I could do) and
Orthopodeo: just
upload what everyone else can read. I thought this was supposed to
Orthopodeo: have
interaction between the two of us.
KCC1TIM: It
is James, I just anticpated a few things, I assure you.
CCFSTiger: you may continue
KCC1TIM: James,
I am not just a truck driver you know. :)
Orthopodeo: For
example, if you wish to discuss John 21, let's discuss it first, before
Orthopodeo: going
on to Matthew 16. Then we can do Matthew 16.
KCC1TIM: Later,
the 50 Proofs first
Orthopodeo: No,
John 21 first.
JasonTE: Yes, complete John 21 first.
CCFSTiger: Tim - yes John 21 first
Orthopodeo: I
agree with the interpretation presented by Cyril regarding John 21:
Orthopodeo: If
anyone asks for what cause he asked Simon only, though the other
Orthopodeo: disciples
were present, and what he means by "Feed my lambs," and the
Orthopodeo: like,
we answer that St. Peter, with the other disciples, had been already
Orthopodeo: chosen
to the Apostleship, but because meanwhile Peter had fallen (for
Orthopodeo: under
great fear he had thrice denied the Lord), he now heals him that was
Orthopodeo: sick,
and exacts a threefold confession in place of his triple denial,
Orthopodeo: contrasting
the former with the latter, and compensating the fault with the
Orthopodeo: correction.
Orthopodeo: The
passage involves the Lord Jesus' *restoration* of Peter, not the *elevation* of
Orthopodeo: Peter
above anyone else.
Orthopodeo: The
three-fold question reflects the three-fold denial Peter had uttered,
Orthopodeo: nothing
more.
Orthopodeo: There
is nothing in the passage that suggests that Peter is given any kind
Orthopodeo: of
"primacy" at all, and it took centuries before anyone read that
concept
Orthopodeo: into
the passage.
KCC1TIM: Jesus
is clear as I have written, that He is personally making Peter the shepherd.
Orthopodeo: Peter
*A* shepherd, not THE shepherd.
Orthopodeo: "To
the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's
Orthopodeo: sufferings
and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be
Orthopodeo: shepherds
of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not
Orthopodeo: because
you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be;
Orthopodeo: not
greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those
Orthopodeo: entrusted
to you, but being examples to the flock."
Orthopodeo: Those
are Peter's own words, from 1 Peter 5:1. Notice he doesn't say
Orthopodeo: THE
elder, but a FELLOW elder.
Orthopodeo: If
you'd like to move to Matthew 16, there's a great deal there to cover.
KCC1TIM: The
three-fold question reflects both the 3-fold denial and strongly
KCC1TIM: emphasizes
Peter's humanity wil not interfere with his mission to
KCC1TIM: be
shepherd on earth. No. he does say fellow elder in a vauge
KCC1TIM: sense.
He is simply recognizing his fellow Bishops.
Orthopodeo: A
"vague sense"? I will allow the reader to judge of that terminology.
KCC1TIM: Let's
hold on with Mathew 16:18,
Orthopodeo: The
point is, Tim, that my interpretation of John 21 is not only textually
Orthopodeo: consistent,
but it is historical, as well. Yes, lets move on.
KCC1TIM: Vauge
terminology? That is what this is all about
KCC1TIM: OK,
the 50 Proofs.
Orthopodeo: The
simple fact is, Tim, that the Apostle Peter never calls himself THE
Orthopodeo: shepherd.
He calls himself a fellow elder.
KCC1TIM: 50
NEW TESTAMENT PROOFS FOR PETRINE PRIMACY AND
KCC1TIM: THE
PAPACY
Orthopodeo: Not
50 proofs in one fell swoop. That would be meaningless. One or two at a time,
KCC1TIM: The
Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically-based, and is
Orthopodeo: allowing
for dialogue and discussion.
KCC1TIM: derived
from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles.
KCC1TIM: Like
all Christian doctrines, it has undergone development through
KCC1TIM: the
centuries, but it hasn't departed from the essential
KCC1TIM: components
already existing in the leadership and prerogatives of
KCC1TIM: St.
Peter. These were given to him by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KCC1TIM: acknowledged
by his contemporaries, and accepted by the early
KCC1TIM: Church.
The biblical Petrine data is quite strong, and is
KCC1TIM: inescapably
compelling by virtue of its cumulative weight. This is
KCC1TIM: especially
made clear with the assistance of biblical
KCC1TIM: commentaries.
The evidence of Holy Scripture (RSV) follows:
KCC1TIM: 1.
Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock
KCC1TIM: I
will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail
KCC1TIM: against
it."
KCC1TIM: The
rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not
KCC1TIM: his
faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the
KCC1TIM: foundation,
but as the architect who "builds." The Church is built,
KCC1TIM: not
on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see, e.g., 1
KCC1TIM: Pet
2:5). Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority
KCC1TIM: of
all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the
KCC1TIM: traditional
Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as
KCC1TIM: the
foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior
KCC1TIM: of
the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy).
KCC1TIM: Moreover,
Rock embodies a metaphor applied to him by Christ in
KCC1TIM: a
sense analogous to the suffering and despised Messiah (1 Pet
KCC1TIM: 2:4-8;
cf. Mt 21:42).Without a solid foundation a house falls. St.
KCC1TIM: Peter
is the foundation, but not founder of the Church,
KCC1TIM: administrator,
but not Lord of the Church. The Good Shepherd
KCC1TIM: (John
10:11) gives us other shepherds as well (Eph 4:11).
KCC1TIM: 2.
Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of
KCC1TIM: heaven
. . ."
KCC1TIM: The
"power of the keys" has to do with ecclesiastical discipline
KCC1TIM: and
administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the
KCC1TIM: faith,
as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this
KCC1TIM: power
flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution,
KCC1TIM: baptismal
discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative
KCC1TIM: powers.
In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a
KCC1TIM: man
who is "over a house" (Gen 41:40; 43:19; 44:4; 1 Ki 4:6;
KCC1TIM: 16:9;
18:3; 2 Ki 10:5; 15:5; 18:18; Is 22:15,20-21).
KCC1TIM: 3.
Matthew 16:19 ". . . whatever you bind on earth shall be bound
KCC1TIM: in
heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in
KCC1TIM: heaven."
KCC1TIM: "Binding"
and "loosing" were technical rabbinical terms, which
KCC1TIM: meant
to "forbid" and "permit" with reference to the
interpretation
KCC1TIM: of
the law, and secondarily to "condemn" or "place under the
ban"
KCC1TIM: or
"acquit." Thus, St. Peter and the popes are given the authority
KCC1TIM: to
determine the rules for doctrine and life, by virtue of revelation
KCC1TIM: and
the Spirit's leading (Jn 16:13), and to demand obedience from
KCC1TIM: the
Church. "Binding and loosing" represent the legislative and
KCC1TIM: judicial
powers of the papacy and the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn
KCC1TIM: 20:23).
St. Peter, however, is the only apostle who receives these
KCC1TIM: powers
by name and in the singular, making him preeminent.
KCC1TIM: 4.
Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk
KCC1TIM: 3:16;
Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the "first"
KCC1TIM: (10:2).
Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.
TerryPax: Whew
Orthopodeo: Excuse
me, but there are dozens of problems already.
TerryPax: Peace all :-)
Michl3282: Excuse me, but the auditorium is open
Orthopodeo: We
must discuss them now, or they will be irrelevant.
PPascuzzi: POint of order Tim got punted
St Bede: oops...
FSHG4PEACE: Tim was punted
FSHG4PEACE: And
RCDEFENDER: people both KCC and CCFS tiger have been bounce from AOL,
RCDEFENDER: please make room for them to renter the room. thank you
FSHG4PEACE: The Audotorium is open
FSHG4PEACE: SO we may be leaving for another room
Winggglow: where
Michl3282: YES THE AUDITORIUM IS OPEN AND 34 THERE, CAN WE MOVE
Orthopodeo: What
auditorium?
ForTKing: where? what is the name of it?
Winggglow: how
Michl3282: Keyword Live
Maria7595: Please send me a link.
RCDEFENDER: the auditorium is for an other event not this one
Michl3282: USE KEYWORD - LIVE
I Coffee I: FSH can youi go there and we will link to you?
Michl3282: Steve is open CHAT there
FSHG4PEACE: Which one though Michl? I can go and link everyone, but there
FSHG4PEACE: are several
Ix0us: Is this where the sola scrptura debate is?
Michl3282: Wait BRB with Link
FSHG4PEACE: Ok
Michl3282: Oh Shoot I am afraid I will lose my place
Orthopodeo: Ix:
Papacy debate, but the Roman Catholic representative just got dumped.
I Coffee I: FSH,, if you go we can just click on your name
RCDEFENDER: PLEASE MAKE ROOM FOR CCFS TIGER AND KCC1TIM TOI RE-ENTER THIS ROOM
St Bede: Ortho odd...
Maria7595: I can serve as a backup if you like.
FSHG4PEACE: Okay, I am going to look for it. May not get back here.
Winggglow: just hiot keyword live but I do not think we can use it now
OS Matthew: Ortho: Is this a conspiracy! ;-)
OS Matthew: Ortho: sabotaged!
Fomvp: and Tim can't return til someone leaves... so, I shall do so.. Michl, please advise if you
Orthopodeo: St
Bede: :)
Fomvp: move to another room
PPascuzzi: I gueee the last two in should step out for moderator and debaters
I Coffee I: I willl leave tell me when Tim is back on so no one else gets this place
Orthopodeo: The
Jesuits must control AOL.
Michl3282: Okay Ann
Ramrei: LOLOL
OS Matthew: Ortho: Hey...many would be on your side in this debate!
Maria7595: I will leave under the condition that someone send me a log later.
Michl3282: There is no Link to room,
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, one could only hope LOL
OS Matthew: Ortho: A lotta libs.
FSHG4PEACE: What is the name of it Michl?
FSHG4PEACE: Name of the room?
RCDEFENDER: Maria, go to my home page .....I'll be send out a massive E-mail with the link
Michl3282: Okay I am leaving I will inform FSH of name
FSHG4PEACE: Ok Michl
PPascuzzi: Tim still hasn't made it back on line
Maria7595: Thanks, RC. I'm gone. Tell Tim I just made an opening.
Orthopodeo: Hey
Jason, you're in charge! Do something! LOL.
RCDEFENDER: Maria, ok :-0
JPIPMPKP: MR white this does happen to tim lately
RCDEFENDER: :-)
SNuGYoUSOB: ¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-By: FieRy Loaded
SNuGYoUSOB: ¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-Loaded 183 times!
Michl3282: Okay its Keyword Live then Live Events FFSH
RR1981: We are leaving to make room Rc please send us the link so we may read the log later
JasonTE: :)
RCDEFENDER: RR, OK
RR1981: thanks everyone God Bless
JasonTE: We can't do anything until Tim's back.
Michl3282: FSH, DID YOU ALL GET THIS ITS KEYWORD LIVE THEN LIVE EVENTS CC PEOPLE ARE THERE
ForTKing: is Tim back online?
SNuGYoUSOB: ¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-By: FieRy Pinter
SNuGYoUSOB: ¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-Room added....
TerryPax: Sorry I'm going to miss this -- is someone making a log?
OS Matthew: Jason: He is in AOL purgatory.
SNuGYoUSOB: ¤[MyStiC¤GoLd]-By: FieRy Pinter
TerryPax: I'd like one please -- I'll leave - I was in last I think
RCDEFENDER: TerryPax, the log will be on my home page
St Bede: SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUS
RCDEFENDER: {{{{{{{Tim}}}}}}}}}}}}}
KCC1TIM: I
am back and PLEASE NO IM's!
KCC1TIM: I
got punted because 5 people Imed me
KCC1TIM: Where
did M
KCC1TIM: Mr.
White go?
PPascuzzi: Room there is a hacker in the room
Orthopodeo: I'm
here. Someone is hacking us.
Sherimar: Steve leave your IM open to me..with no activity we may get punted
Sherimar: as wellSNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYoUSOB, SNuGYo
RCDEFENDER: Tim type $im_off and hit the availbe buttom this will shut them off
Sherimar: SNUG JUST TRIED TO PUNT ME
Dashace: Sheri me as well
SNuGYoUSOB: Sorry =]
Michl3282: Tim you got punted cuz there is a punter here
Sherimar: SNUG leave the room
Orthopodeo: $im_off
ForTKing: Snugy you are in violation of TOS
ForTKing: you were bombing me
KCC1TIM: My
IM's are now off
PPascuzzi: Sheri same here
CalDef: good, Ortho.whenever you see MysticGold it is a "hacker"
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, yes but in your IM window were you put the persons name
SNuGYoUSOB: PPas called me a piece of sh__ hehehehe =]
Sherimar: I had my IMS blocked
Sherimar: to all except Steve
SNuGYoUSOB: My job here is done!
SNuGYoUSOB: Go about your business!
PPascuzzi: Sheri you also have to have buddy chats turned off BEFOR hacker starts up
CalDef: he just left
Michl3282: TIM< the Auditorium is open
KCC1TIM: Praise
God, shall we continue?
KCC1TIM: Where?
Sherimar: I just kept clicking them off
Michl3282: TIM< I am trying to get Link, hold on
KCC1TIM: Ok
ForTKing: where are we going?
KCC1TIM: James
I am sorry about this
Orthopodeo: KCC:
No problem. Not your fault.
Sherimar: anyway Steve leave IM open or we will get punted for
Sherimar: inactivity and we won't get the log
Michl3282: Keyword Live
KCC1TIM: Thanks
RCDEFENDER: people just KCC1TIM,and Orthopodeo, should be talking in room......thanks
KCC1TIM: Michele,
how are james and I to get there?
Michl3282: Steve, the auditorium has 34 waiting on TIM
KCC1TIM: That
will only allow us to observe
JasonTE: Somebody forced me offline. Is the debate moving to another room?
Orthopodeo: Tim:
However, I must ask that the format be adjusted here. I have megs of
Orthopodeo: files
I could upload, as you obviously do, too. Can we possibly focus more
Orthopodeo: on
interaction with one another?
Winggglow: I was forced off too
St Bede: Turn off your buddy chat
St Bede: I just got slammed
Michl3282: Jeansz Tell them how to get to the Auditorium
KCC1TIM: First
we must determine where it is we are going?
Jeans Zz: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{TIM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
FSHG4PEACE: we all have been. Very Christian.
CalDef: hacker is back
Jeans Zz: okay,, let me double check
KCC1TIM: Call
a Guide
CalDef: turn off IMs
I Coffee I: Snugy is the booter
FSHG4PEACE: Michl I couldnt get there
ForTKing: yes we need a guide
St Bede: FSH Yes, this happened to me when I went to Christian Fellowship
ForTKing: brb
FSHG4PEACE: Yes Coffee he is
Michl3282: FSH Jeans, is going to get Step by Step
KCC1TIM: Get
Snuggy this is costing me $$ I had to use the 800 number
PPascuzzi: guide is on the way
I Coffee I: turn off IMs $im_off
FSHG4PEACE: Ok
READER1022: SNUG: My friends are trying to chat here.
I Coffee I: then put in x in the body
FSHG4PEACE: Mine are going off
Winggglow: i called a guide
KCC1TIM: Thanks
Marie
Jeans Zz: TODAYS LIVE EVENTS
SNuGYoUSOB: READER =Ŝ
Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE
Orthopodeo: Tim:
< sigh > I'm afraid I need to suggest that we take CCFS's advice. I
Orthopodeo: don't
think idiots like SNuGY can do this while we are in an auditorium.
I Coffee I: Thanks Marie
Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE CHAT SCHEDULE
Jeans Zz: ENTER CHATROOM
SNuGYoUSOB: Ortho You nut
KCC1TIM: Ok
in 3 weeks then?
I Coffee I: Jeans it is full I was just there
JPIPMPKP: he did it to me
Orthopodeo: I
must say, though, that everyone behaved just fine up to then. :)
Jeans Zz: COFFEE :(
FSHG4PEACE: Geez.
JPIPMPKP: MR White you know this snug guy
Orthopodeo: But
before we do that, let's talk, openly, about the best way to do this in the
Orthopodeo: Pfuture.
Jeans Zz: let's keep trying,,they're just talking garbage in the auditorium,,polling etc
Orthopodeo: JPIP:
Are you kidding?
Winggglow: this is an outrage
RCDEFENDER: KCC1TIM, Orthopodeo, I can make a private room that no others can
JPIPMPKP: no who is he
RCDEFENDER: eneter. i'll log the debates there and post them for all to read. agreed/
FSHG4PEACE: Good idea. We need it to be scheduled, in a room where the punters
FSHG4PEACE: cannot take advantage
KCC1TIM: Jim,
I am game for a re-match, however, if you are up to it, we can continue now
SNuGYoUSOB: James is my BEST friend right james? =]
KCC1TIM: Snuggy
= {S jrkstore
KJVBK: KCC.......what happen to the debate?
Orthopodeo: Do
you think we can have a meaningful discussion with SNuGY in the room? You know
Orthopodeo: how
people like that are.
St Bede: Snuggy Truth hurts huh?
Winggglow: I do not
KCC1TIM: No
we need to dispose of him first
SNuGYoUSOB: I'm outta here
SNuGYoUSOB: Have fun arguing!!!
Michl3282: ORTHO the auditorium is free, do you and TIM want to try it?
Orthopodeo: They
will sit there nice and quiet when the Guide comes in, then poof, they
Orthopodeo: go
nuts as soon as the Guide leaves.
Jeans Zz: {{{{{{{Paul}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
CalDef: Ortho is correct
Orthopodeo: Michl:
I don't know how auditoriums work. If Tim is game, so am I.
I Coffee I: Snug has left the room : )
Michl3282: Okay Jeans tell them again how to get there
Winggglow: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ ^i^ TIM ^i^ }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Orthopodeo: But,
Tim, let's discuss the format.
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, I'll be forwarding the log to TOS general. His days on
RCDEFENDER: AOL are now numbered
KCC1TIM: We
can get there, however we have no control to get in to where we type Michelwe
Jeans Zz: KEYWORD LIVE
Michl3282: PLEASE LISTEN TO JEANS IF WE WANT TO CONTINUE
Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE EVENTS
Winggglow: Amen Steve
Orthopodeo: RC:
Yeah, and he'll be back on under a new name in less than an hour. Sadly.
CalDef: RC, he'll have a different name in 10 minutes
KCC1TIM: We
wil only be in the chat rows which is useless
Jeans Zz: AOL LIVE SCHEDULE
Jeans Zz: ENTER CHATROOM
FSHG4PEACE: But there are several rooms, guys
KCC1TIM: We
need a link to get where we need to be
FSHG4PEACE: Somebody go there
Michl3282: TIM there is no Heart
Jeans Zz: TIM THERE IS NO HEART IN T HE AUDITORIUM :(
Michl3282: You have to follow JEANS INSTRUCTIONS
ForTKing: why not here?
KJVBK: James White is not currently signed on!!
FSHG4PEACE: He got punted too?
Orthopodeo: KJV:
Yes I am.
CalDef: yes he is
Orthopodeo: I've
been told the hacker has been "spoken to."
Sherimar: this is a farce
KCC1TIM: OK
we have 23 here now and no snuggy
Orthopodeo: Tim,
shall we give it another go?
I Coffee I: can we continue?
FSHG4PEACE: Just continue
KCC1TIM: YES
JasonTE: Let's continue here.
KCC1TIM: Let's
continue
ForTKing: he bombed most of us here. click minimize as fast as you can if he does it again.
Orthopodeo: Tim:
BTW, we can cut that middle garbage out of the log, right?
Ix0us: Lets do it!
KJVBK: SORRY.......ORTHOPODEO...is not currently signed on !! :)
FSHG4PEACE: Ok Fort, thanks.
KCC1TIM: James,
the Proof is in the Scriptures
Orthopodeo: KJV:
Well, I am, I assure you!
JPIPMPKP: KJ he is too
RCDEFENDER: KJVBK, YES he is that's just the message you get when IMs are shuit off
KCC1TIM: OK
can everyone refrain from typing?
KJVBK: OK...James
JPIPMPKP: RCDEFENDER please mention to tos that he screwed up many people
JPIPMPKP: i had to take my phone off the hook in order
KCC1TIM: OK
are we squared away on John 21 yet?
Orthopodeo: KCC:
Yes, it is. Now, can we do this interactively, or shall we just do the
Orthopodeo: dueling
text files? I mean, I have megs of stuff on my web page I could
Orthopodeo: dump
in here, and you'd never be able to answer half of it in the time
JPIPMPKP: to get offline for a minute
Orthopodeo: alloted.
So, how about we get interactive?
Orthopodeo: I
believe we have presented our respective understandings of John 21.
Orthopodeo: Let's
move on to Matthew 16.
KCC1TIM: I
have important info for you to read,
KCC1TIM: You
want mat 16?
Orthopodeo: Then
give us a link to a web page. Everyone can get it at their leisure.
KCC1TIM: There
is not a link for all, most I have written myself
Orthopodeo: I
have certain things ready to upload, but they are short, pointed, and for
Orthopodeo: interaction,
not long text files you can't possibly respond to.
Orthopodeo: All
my stuff I wrote, too. :)
JasonTE: No long text files.
KCC1TIM: I
feel it is necessary to give the history on certain things
Orthopodeo: Let's
start with the passage itself. Shall I upload it, or you?
KCC1TIM: I
have it ready thanks
Orthopodeo: So
do I. In its place.
KCC1TIM: OK
you first
JPIPMPKP: wait
JPIPMPKP: who is in charge tim
JPIPMPKP: no ccfs staff here
KCC1TIM: You
are Jpip and Jason TE
Orthopodeo: OK,
let's do it this way. I'd like to present my understanding of the
Orthopodeo: passage.
Then you can present yours. How does that sound?
KCC1TIM: OK
with me
FSHG4PEACE: I am sorry, I am supposed to moderate, and really cant right now
KCC1TIM: OOps
sorry FSH
KCC1TIM: I
didn;t know
FSHG4PEACE: RC? Can you?
RCDEFENDER: sure
KCC1TIM: OK
Jason and RC
ForTKing: :o)
Orthopodeo: KCC:
Will you upload the text, please?
KCC1TIM: Please
James, begin
Orthopodeo: You
said you had it ready.
KCC1TIM: Oh,
OK
JPIPMPKP: well so much for me!!!
RCDEFENDER: JPIPMPKP, go right ahead
Orthopodeo: (Matthew
16:18-19) "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this
Orthopodeo: rock
I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Orthopodeo: [19]
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you
Orthopodeo: bind
on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on
JPIPMPKP: i am joking!!!
Orthopodeo: earth
shall have been loosed in heaven."
Orthopodeo: Hey,
that worked better than I thought. :)
Orthopodeo: We
are asked to believe that not only is the impetuous and frail Peter
Orthopodeo: made
the very foundation of the Church itself in this passage, but that this
Orthopodeo: foundational
position creates an office of Pope, and that in fact this office
Orthopodeo: involves
successors, successors who will sit in the seat of bishop in the far
Orthopodeo: off
city of Rome, 1500 miles distant---a monarchical bishopric that will not
Orthopodeo: develop
for another 110 years!
Orthopodeo: The
central theme of this passage is the Messiahship of Jesus Christ. Any
Orthopodeo: interpretation
that takes the focus off of Jesus as Messiah is missing the
Orthopodeo: point.
Jesus' questions to the disciples about the opinions of the
Orthopodeo: multitudes,
and then their own viewpoints, are all directed toward His own
Orthopodeo: person,
His own identity.
Orthopodeo: The
subject of the passage remains the identity of Christ, found in the
Orthopodeo: confession
of Peter. When the Lord says, "I tell you that you are Peter, and
Orthopodeo: on
this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hades will not overcome
Orthopodeo: it,"
the focus does not change. Jesus is not here speaking of the identity
Orthopodeo: of
Peter; He is still talking about Himself and His Church. This is plainly
Orthopodeo: seen
by continuing on through verse 20, where we read, "Then he warned
Orthopodeo: his
disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."
Orthopodeo: The
rock of which the Lord speaks is that common confession made by all
Orthopodeo: who
are part of the Church: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Orthopodeo: This
is seen, I believe, in the fact that while the Lord is addressing Peter
Orthopodeo: directly,
He changes from direct address to the third person, "this rock,"
Orthopodeo: when
speaking of Peter's confession. He does not say, "upon you, Peter, I
Orthopodeo: will
build my church."
Orthopodeo: Instead,
you have a clear distinction between Peter, the Petros, and the
Orthopodeo: third
person petra, the confession of faith, upon which the Church is built.
KCC1TIM: are
you finished James?
Orthopodeo: Just
a moment.
Orthopodeo: One
of the key issues regarding the Roman interpretation of this passage
Orthopodeo: has
to do with the fact that it is claimed that Peter ALONE is given the
Orthopodeo: keys
in this passage. However, there is a fundamental problem here: the
KCC1TIM: please
continue
Orthopodeo: verb
"will give" (Greek: doso) is FUTURE in tense. Jesus gives no one
Orthopodeo: any
keys or binding authority in this passage.
Orthopodeo: So,
given that Jesus here only promises to give the keys to Peter in this
Orthopodeo: passage,
when, in fact, did He do this? If one says that the Bible does not
Orthopodeo: record
this event, this seems quite strange, for such would be a
Orthopodeo: foundational
event in the history of the Church.
Orthopodeo: However,
I believe the fulfillment of this promise is indeed found in the
Orthopodeo: Bible:
in Matthew 18:18. The phraseology of binding and loosing is
Orthopodeo: *identical*
to the wording in Matthew 16, except that here the pronouns are
Orthopodeo: in
the plural form, rather than the singular. Here, the power of binding and
Orthopodeo: loosing
is given to ALL the apostles *together.*
Orthopodeo: Now,
I stand with the early church in stating that the power of the keys and
Orthopodeo: the
power of binding and loosing are IDENTICAL CONCEPTS. Biblically,
Orthopodeo: historically,
and logically, the keys and the power of binding and loosing
Orthopodeo: are
the same thing, and, since that authority was given to ALL the Apostles
Orthopodeo: *equally*
in Matthew 18:18, the Roman interpretation is seen to be in error.
Orthopodeo: OK,
all yours.
Orthopodeo: Is
my understanding of the thrust of the passage clear to you, Tim?
JPIPMPKP: tim is reading
KCC1TIM: Well
that is certainly your opinion. However, I will prove to you
KCC1TIM: that
your Greek translation is erroneous, you have used the
KCC1TIM: Nominitive
case when in fact it is the DATIVE case. You
KCC1TIM: mentioned
the Future tense
KCC1TIM: r,
it is the Historic Present tense
Orthopodeo: No,
dwsw is in the future tense, not the historic present. That is a basic
Orthopodeo: fact
of Greek grammar.
KCC1TIM: and
litterally says having been bound in the Heavens
KCC1TIM: and
whaterever thou bindest on earth
Orthopodeo: dwsw
is the future of didwmi.
KCC1TIM: It
is a done deal when Peter speaks it.
Orthopodeo: Please
identify the noun to which you refer.
KCC1TIM: I
think you have it backwards
Orthopodeo: petra
is in the dative (or locative, if you use the 8 case system).
KCC1TIM: Peter
is the Subject of that sentence and everything refers to him
Orthopodeo: Tim,
two ways to settle this. I can open BibleWorks 3.5 and paste out the
Orthopodeo: parsing
of the verb for you; or, since I teach Greek regularly, you can take
Orthopodeo: my
word for it.
Dashace: can we hear Tims view? without interuption?
Orthopodeo: Peter
is the subject of the blessing, but the clause about building the
Orthopodeo: church
is in reference to petra.
KCC1TIM: it
litterally says "I will give you the Keys of the Kingdom of the
KCC1TIM: heavens
and whatever that you bindest on the earth shall be
KCC1TIM: having
been bound in the Heavens." It is a done deal
KCC1TIM: OK,
Now let me show you:
Orthopodeo: Yes,
you are referring to verse 19. Fine. It says "I WILL give." Future
Orthopodeo: tense.
When did this happen, Tim?
JPIPMPKP: MR WHITE PLEASE WAIT
Cuchulan2: I'm INNNN!!!!
KCC1TIM: Matthew
16:18-20. Jesus and His Apostles were traveling through
KCC1TIM: the
region of Ceasaria Philipi, when they came to rest at a place
Orthopodeo: JP:
Polite interaction is within the rules, my friend.
KCC1TIM: at
the headwaters of the Great River. No doubt the Apostles were
KCC1TIM: struck
in
KCC1TIM: awe
at the picturesque spectacle of God's handiwork, the massive
JPIPMPKP: CUCH please be quiet
KCC1TIM: rock
formation beyond the river. While the Apostles gazed at the
KCC1TIM: breathtaking
formation of rock, in the quietude of the moment,
KCC1TIM: Jesus
seized the opportunity and asked, "Who do men say that I
KCC1TIM: am?"
The Apostles answered, some say John the Baptist, Elijah,
KCC1TIM: one
of the Prophets, etc. Then Simon bar (son of) Jona spoke up,
KCC1TIM: "You
are the Christ!" It is this proclamation, revealed to the
KCC1TIM: fisherman
by God our Father, therefore indicating he was chosen
KCC1TIM: by
God, for greatness, that Our Blessed Lord made him His Vicar.
KCC1TIM: Jesus
said: "And I say unto you, and tell you why I before
KCC1TIM: declared,
(John 1:42) that YOU SHOULD BE CALLED PETER, for
KCC1TIM: you
are constituted the Rock upon which, as a foundation, I will
KCC1TIM: build
My Church," and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates
KCC1TIM: (i.e.
the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if
KCC1TIM: they
overturn its foundation, (i.e. You and Your successors) they
KCC1TIM: will
overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore
KCC1TIM: here
Promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to
KCC1TIM: the
end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors
KCC1TIM: and
princes.
KCC1TIM: In
the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus spoke, there is no
KCC1TIM: difference
of genders, as in Greek and Latin, between petra, a
KCC1TIM: rock,
and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the
KCC1TIM: allusion
was both
KCC1TIM: more
natural and more simple.
KCC1TIM: You
are Peter and upon this Rock (i.e. upon You, according to the
KCC1TIM: literal
and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I WILL BUILD
KCC1TIM: MY
CHURCH.
KCC1TIM: It
is true St. Augustine expounds these words, AND UPON THIS
KCC1TIM: ROCK,
(i.e. upon Myself:) or upon This Rock, which Peter has
KCC1TIM: confessed:
yet he owns that he had also given the other
KCC1TIM: interpretation,
by which Peter himself was the Rock. Some
KCC1TIM: Fathers
have also expounded it, UPON THE FAITH, which Peter
KCC1TIM: confessed;
but then they take NOT faith, as separated from the
KCC1TIM: person
of Peter, but ON Peter, as holding the true Faith. No one
KCC1TIM: questions
that Christ Himself is the great Foundation-stone, the
KCC1TIM: Chief
Cornerstone, as St. Paul tells the Church at Ephesus (Eph
KCC1TIM: 2:20)
but it is also certain, that all the Apostles may be called
KCC1TIM: foundation-stones
of the Church, as represented in Revelations
KCC1TIM: 21:14.
In the Meantime, St. Peter, (called therefore Cephas, a
KCC1TIM: rock)
was the First and Chief Foundation-stone among the
KCC1TIM: apostles,
on whom Christ promised to build His Church.
KCC1TIM: YOU
ARE PETER, as St. Peter, by Divine revelation, here made a
KCC1TIM: solemn
profession of Faith of the Divinity of Christ, so in
KCC1TIM: recompense
of this Faith and profession, Our Blessed Lord here
KCC1TIM: declares
him to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise
KCC1TIM: him:
that he, to whom he had already given the name of Peter,
KCC1TIM: signifying
a ROCK, (John 1:42) should be a rock indeed, of
KCC1TIM: invincible
strength, for the support of the building of the Church; in
KCC1TIM: which
building he should be next to Christ himself, the chief
KCC1TIM: Foundation-stone,
in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor;
KCC1TIM: and
should have accordingly all fullness of Ecclesiastical power,
KCC1TIM: signified
by the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.
KCC1TIM: UPON
THIS ROCK. The words of Christ to Peter spoken in the
KCC1TIM: vulgar
language of the Jews, which Our Blessed Lord made use
KCC1TIM: of,
were the same as if he had said in English, "You are a rock,
KCC1TIM: and
upon this rock I will build My Church." So that, by the plain
KCC1TIM: course
of the words, Peter is here DECLARED to be the rock,
KCC1TIM: upon
which the Church was to be built; Christ Himself being both
KCC1TIM: the
principal foundation and Founder of the same. Where also
KCC1TIM: note,
that Christ by building His house, that is, His Church, upon
KCC1TIM: a
rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like a
KCC1TIM: wise
builder, (Matt 7:24-25). And God only knows how many
KCC1TIM: storms
we have had! The Gnostics, the Roman Persecutions, the
KCC1TIM: Donatists,
the Bogomils, the Arians, the Cathari, the Albigensies,
KCC1TIM: the
Waldensians, the Greek Schisms, Protestantism, etc., to
KCC1TIM: name
a few. We have weathered this storm for nearly 2,000
KCC1TIM: years,
just as Christ had predicted we would. Jesus warned us
KCC1TIM: about
the False Prophets.
KCC1TIM: THE
GATES OF HELL. That is the powers of darkness, and
KCC1TIM: whatever
Satan can do, either by himself or his agents. For as
KCC1TIM: the
Church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock;
KCC1TIM: so
the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress,
KCC1TIM: the
gates of which, i.e. the whole strength, and all the efforts it
KCC1TIM: can
make will NEVER be able to prevail over the City or Church of
KCC1TIM: Christ,
the Catholic Church. By this promise we are fully assured,
KCC1TIM: that
neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever
KCC1TIM: shall
at any time prevail over the Church of Christ, the Catholic
KCC1TIM: Church.
KCC1TIM: THE
GATES, in the oriental style, signify the powers; thus, to this
KCC1TIM: day,
we designate the Ottoman or Turkish Empire by the Ottoman
KCC1TIM: port.
The Princes were wont to hold their courts of the city.
KCC1TIM: AND
I WILL GIVE TO YOU THE KEYS. This is another
KCC1TIM: metaphor,
expressing the Supreme power and prerogative of the
KCC1TIM: Prince
of the Apostles. The keys of a city, or of its gates, are
KCC1TIM: presented
or given to the
KCC1TIM: person
that has the Chief power. We also own a power of the
KCC1TIM: keys,
given to the other Apostles but with a subordination to St.
KCC1TIM: Peter
and to his successor, as Head of the Catholic Church.
KCC1TIM: AND
WHATSOVEVER YOU SHALL BIND. All the Apostles and
KCC1TIM: their
successors, partake also of this power BINDING and
KCC1TIM: LOOSING
but with a due subordination to one head invested with
KCC1TIM: the
Supreme Power.
KCC1TIM: LOOSE
ON EARTH. The loosing of the bands of temporal
KCC1TIM: punishments
due to sins, is called an Indulgence: The power of
KCC1TIM: which
is here granted. Although Peter and his successors are
KCC1TIM: mortal,
they are nevertheless endowed with Heavenly Power says
KCC1TIM: St.
John Chrysostom, nor is the sentence of life and death passed
KCC1TIM: by
Peter to be attempted to be reversed, but what he declares is
KCC1TIM: to
be considered to be a Divine answer from Heaven, and what he
KCC1TIM: decrees,
a Decree of God Himself.
KCC1TIM: HE
THAT HEARS YOU HEARS ME. The power of binding is
KCC1TIM: exercised,
first by refusing to absolve; second by enjoining
KCC1TIM: penance
for sins forgiven; third by excommunication, suspension
KCC1TIM: or
interdict; fourth by making rules and laws for the government of
KCC1TIM: the
Church; fifth by determining what is of Faith by judgments and
KCC1TIM: definitions
of the Church. The terms BINDING & LOOSING are
KCC1TIM: equivalent
to OPENING and CLOSING, because formerly the
KCC1TIM: Jews
opened the fastenings of their doors by untying it, and they
KCC1TIM: shut
or secured their doors by tying or binding it.
KCC1TIM: Dr.
Whitby a learned Protestant divine, thus expounds this and
KCC1TIM: the
proceeding verse: "As a suitable return to your confession, I
KCC1TIM: say
also to you, that you are by name Peter, a rock; and upon
KCC1TIM: You
are this rock I will build My Church, and I will give to you the
KCC1TIM: Keys
to the Kingdom of Heaven, the POWER of making laws to
KCC1TIM: govern
My Church."
KCC1TIM: Dr.
Hammond, another Protestant divine, explains it in the same
KCC1TIM: manner.
And he says: "What is here meant by the Keys, is best
KCC1TIM: understood
by Isaia 22, where they signify ruling the whole family
KCC1TIM: or
house of the King: and this being by Christ accommodated to
KCC1TIM: the
Church denotes the power of governing it."
KCC1TIM: TELL
NO ONE THAT HE WAS JESUS, the CHIRST. In some
KCC1TIM: MSS,
both Greek and Latin, the Name Jesus is not found, and
KCC1TIM: many
interpreters think it superfluous in this place. The Greek
KCC1TIM: expressly
says the Christ adjoining the article, which the Latin
KCC1TIM: tongue
does not express. "In a proceeding part of Scripture,
KCC1TIM: Jesus
sending His Apostles, Commanded them to publish His
KCC1TIM: coming;
but here he seems to give a contrary mandate, TELL NO
KCC1TIM: ONE,
but in my opinion it is one thing to preach the Christ, and
KCC1TIM: another
to preach Christ Jesus; for Christ is a name of dignity, but
KCC1TIM: Jesus
is the particular name of the Redeemer."-Dr. Hammond.
KCC1TIM: St.
Jerome says, "He did not forbid them to teach that there was a
KCC1TIM: Messias
a Redeemer, but to declare then that He was the
KCC1TIM: Person;
second, the disciples (Matthew 10), are not sent to
KCC1TIM: preach
the Gospel,
KCC1TIM: strictly
speaking, but only to prepare the minds and hearts of the
KCC1TIM: people
for the coming of the Messias, as is evident from Mat
KCC1TIM: 10:23.
See Mark 14:61-62. John 5:18, 8:58, 10:30, and 6:27.
KCC1TIM: But
why did he lay this injunction? To avoid the envy of the
KCC1TIM: Scribes,
and not to appear to raise His own Glory. He wishes the
KCC1TIM: people
to be induced to own Him for their Messias, not from the
KCC1TIM: testimony
of his retainers, but from His miracles and doctrines;
KCC1TIM: and
lastly, because as His time was not yet come, the Apostles
KCC1TIM: were
not yet fit to deliver, not the people to receive, this grand
KCC1TIM: tenet."
KCC1TIM: OK
5 mins for reading?
JPIPMPKP: tim you done
Orthopodeo: That's
all very nice, but so far, you have failed to deal with the basic facts of
Orthopodeo: the
matter. Back to the issue: the verb "I WILL give" is future tense.
This
Orthopodeo: is
not an arguable fact, and unless you can provide a single scholarly
Orthopodeo: source
that says otherwise, it is an established fact. Now, please answer
Orthopodeo: the
question I asked: where does Jesus give these keys to Peter?
KCC1TIM: That
is right!
KCC1TIM: Jesus
is Commissioning Peter for his FUTURE MISSION!
Orthopodeo: OK,
and when does Peter receive these keys, please?
KCC1TIM: Which
we have already seen in John 21!~
Orthopodeo: There
was nothing in John 21 about keys, Tim. So, where and when does Peter
Orthopodeo: receive
the keys?
KCC1TIM: He
got them at the time of that Promise at Caesaria Philippi
I Coffee I: I'ts not on a keychain
Orthopodeo: Tim,
the future means he will receive the keys in the FUTURE, not then.
JPIPMPKP: COFFEE please
I Coffee I: sorry
RCDEFENDER: I Coffee I, please only KCC1TIM, Orthopodeo, ok?
KCC1TIM: NO,
Sir. He recveved the Keys then and was promised to be the
KCC1TIM: Head
of His Church. Stop switching tenses
Orthopodeo: You
see, the only *biblical* way of looking at the passage is recognizing
Orthopodeo: that
Jesus is saying to Peter that he, Peter, will receive keys. But, when
Orthopodeo: you
look at Matthew, you find Peter receiving the keys ALONG WITH THE
Orthopodeo: OTHER
DISCIPLES in Matthew 18:18.
KCC1TIM: NO
KCC1TIM: He
said YOU are Peter Not You ARE it is a singular you
Orthopodeo: The
grammar is identical between the two passages, and you are forced
KCC1TIM: Not
You ALL
Orthopodeo: to
either deny the force of the future tense of dwsw, or, you are forced to
Orthopodeo: say
the Bible does not record the giving of these keys to Peter.
KCC1TIM: Not
even
Orthopodeo: That
is correct....in Matthew 16 the pronoun is singular. In Matthew 18 it is
Orthopodeo: plural.
The issue is the fact that in Matthew 16 NO ONE IS GIVEN A KEY.
KCC1TIM: The
Bible says what it says, why do you not believe it?
JPIPMPKP: MR WHITE pleease let tim finish his sentence!!!
KCC1TIM: Now,
question for you?
Orthopodeo: I
will gladly leave to the audience whether I am believing the text or not.
KCC1TIM: Show
us in history before the year 1500 where your views were believed?
KCC1TIM: Can
you do that?
Orthopodeo: If
you'd like to switch to history, I'd be glad to.
KCC1TIM: Just
show the point.
Orthopodeo: Yes,
in point of fact, Tim, the views I have of Matthew 16 are the
Orthopodeo: MAJORITY
view of the early Church.
Orthopodeo: Canon
35 of the Apostolic Constitutions reads, "The bishops of every
Orthopodeo: country
ought to know who is the chief among them, and to esteem him as
Orthopodeo: their
head, and not to do any great thing without his consent; but every one
Orthopodeo: to
manage only the affairs that belong to his own parish, and the places
Orthopodeo: subject
to it. But let him not do anything without the consent of all; for it is
KCC1TIM: And
always have been, since there was no other Church than the Catholic Church
Orthopodeo: by
this means there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified by Christ, in
Orthopodeo: the
Holy Spirit."
Orthopodeo: Following
in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and
Orthopodeo: acknowledging
the canon, which has been just read...we also do enact
Orthopodeo: and
decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy
Orthopodeo: Church
of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly
Orthopodeo: granted
privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city.
Orthopodeo: And
the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the
Orthopodeo: same
consideration, gave equal privileges to the most holy throne of New
Orthopodeo: Rome,
justly judging that the city which is honored with the Sovereignty and
Orthopodeo: the
Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should
Orthopodeo: in
ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after
Orthopodeo: her.
Orthopodeo: That's
the 28th Canon of Chalcedon, btw.
JPIPMPKP: MR white can you allow some time for reading
Orthopodeo: The
Council of Nicea provides us with yet another fact that is contrary to
Orthopodeo: Papal
claims. It is to be found in canon 6 of that council, and it reads as
Orthopodeo: follows:
Orthopodeo: Let
the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis prevail, that
Orthopodeo: the
Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction
Orthopodeo: in
all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also.
Orthopodeo: Likewise
in Antioch and the other provinces,
Orthopodeo: let
the Churches retain their privileges.
Orthopodeo: JP:
My scrolls are far slower than Tim's.
KCC1TIM: I
am caught up
JPIPMPKP: MR white are you switching to history???
KCC1TIM: And
I shall now answer Canon 6
Orthopodeo: So
really, Tim, it's hard to know where to start!
KCC1TIM: Let
me refute you on Canon 6 first
Orthopodeo: JP:
Excuse me, but KCC switched to history, not me.
ForTKing: JP, they'e doing fine
Orthopodeo: Before
you "refute" me, how about letting me explain it?
JPIPMPKP: OK Jason are you noticing this
KCC1TIM: I
did not switch, I asked you to show me in history about Mat 16:18
Orthopodeo: OK,
if you wish to focus solely upon Matthew 16, that is easily done. Shall
KCC1TIM: I
will now refute Canon 6 and your erroneous claims
Orthopodeo: we
focus?
JasonTE: JP, they agreed to address history for a while.
KCC1TIM: This
will take me some time, please bare with me
JPIPMPKP: they jason
Orthopodeo: No,
Tim, I haven't even explained my citation of it yet. How can you refute my
Orthopodeo: "erroneous
claims" when I haven't made any yet? :O)
JPIPMPKP: they????
KCC1TIM: The
First Ecumenical Council of Nicea was held in 325. An
KCC1TIM: Ecumenical
or General Council represents the entire teaching of
KCC1TIM: the
Church as opposed to a Synod or a metropolitan or a national
KCC1TIM: council.
The Ecumenical Council, like the Pope, is infallible in
KCC1TIM: matters
of Faith and Morals because it is the voice of the teaching
KCC1TIM: Church.
KCC1TIM: At
this time a heresy had arisen in Alexandria and at that time
KCC1TIM: was
making great headway throughout the East, the heresy of
KCC1TIM: ARIUS,
a priest of Alexandria. Arius taught that Jesus Christ was
KCC1TIM: not
truly Divine, that His nature was not the same as that of the
KCC1TIM: Father
but only similar. It was to study this question and to
KCC1TIM: pronounce
the true teaching of the Church that the Bishops from
KCC1TIM: all
parts of the Empire made their way to Nicea in 325. The
KCC1TIM: Emperor
Constantine, still a catechumen, had at first made light
Orthopodeo: First,
Tim, you didn't ask me about Matthew 16 originally; you asked about
Orthopodeo: my
"view."
KCC1TIM: of
the matter, but when his eyes were opened to the danger of
KCC1TIM: Arian
doctrine by Hosius of Cordova, he became so interested
KCC1TIM: that
he went to Nicea Himself. He begged the Bishops from
KCC1TIM: every
country to attend the
KCC1TIM: Council.
Even Bishops from outside the Roman Empire attended,
KCC1TIM: such
as the Bishop of Persia.
KCC1TIM: Pope
St. Sylvester I sent two legates to represent him, Vitus and
KCC1TIM: Vicentius,
and it seems that it was the Pope who suggested the
KCC1TIM: term
CONSUBSTANTIAL (same substance) to describe the
KCC1TIM: relation
of Christ's
KCC1TIM: nature
to the Father.
KCC1TIM: The
Council Condemned Arius and drew up the famous Nicean
KCC1TIM: Creed,
which we still say at Holy Mass today in all Catholic
KCC1TIM: Churches
throughout the world. The Creed proclaims that Jesus
KCC1TIM: is
True God of True God consubstantial (one in being) with the
KCC1TIM: Father.
The Council drew up 20 Canons. They are:
KCC1TIM: Canon
I On the Admission. or support, or expulsion of clerics
KCC1TIM: mutilated
. by choice or vengeance.
KCC1TIM: Canon
II Rules to be observed for Ordination, the avoidance of
KCC1TIM: undue
. . haste, the deposition of those guilty of a
KCC1TIM: grave
fault.
KCC1TIM: Canon
III All members of the Clergy are forbidden to dwell with
KCC1TIM: any
KCC1TIM: woman,
except a mother, sister or aunt.
Orthopodeo: Tim:
Please, another text file on something will accomplish nothing. Please do
KCC1TIM: Canon
IV Concerning Episcopal Elections.
Orthopodeo: interactive
stuff on specific issues, please.
KCC1TIM: Canon
V Concerning the Excommunicate.
KCC1TIM: Canon
VI Concerning Patriarchs and their Jurisdiction. (This is
KCC1TIM: the
KCC1TIM: Canon
in question, I will explain it thoroughly in a
KCC1TIM: moment).
KCC1TIM: Canon
VII Confirms the right of the Bishops of Jerusalem to enjoy
KCC1TIM: certain
KCC1TIM: honors.
KCC1TIM: Canon
VIII Concerns the Novatians.
KCC1TIM: Canon
IX Certain sins known after ordination involve invalidation.
KCC1TIM: Canon
X LAPSI who have been ordained knowingly or
KCC1TIM: surreptitiously
KCC1TIM: must
be excluded as soon as their irregularity is
KCC1TIM: known.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XI Penance to be imposed on apostates of the
KCC1TIM: persecution
of
KCC1TIM: Licinius.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XII Penance to be imposed on those who upheld Licinius
KCC1TIM: in
his
KCC1TIM: war
on the Christians.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XIII Indulgence to be granted to excommunicated persons
KCC1TIM: in
KCC1TIM: danger
of death.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XIV Penance to be imposed on catechumens who had
KCC1TIM: weakened
KCC1TIM: under
persecution.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XV Bishops, Priest, and Deacons are not to pass from
KCC1TIM: one
KCC1TIM: Church
to another.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XVI All clerics are forbidden to leave their Church. Formal
Orthopodeo: Tim:
Uploading an entire listing of all canons of Nicea does nothing for the
Orthopodeo: debate.
Please.
KCC1TIM: Prohibition
of Bishops to ordain for their Diocese a
KCC1TIM: cleric
KCC1TIM: belonging
to another Diocese.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XVII All clerics are forbidden to lend at interest.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XVIII Recalls to Deacons their subordinate position with
KCC1TIM: regard
to
KCC1TIM: Priests.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XIX Rules to be observed with regard to adherents of Paul
KCC1TIM: of
KCC1TIM: Samosata
who wished to return to the Church.
KCC1TIM: Canon
XX On Sundays and during the Paschal Season prayers
KCC1TIM: should
KCC1TIM: be
said standing.
KCC1TIM: Canon
VI States:
KCC1TIM: "Let
the ancient custom which is followed in Egypt and Libya and
KCC1TIM: the
Pentapolis remain in force, by which the Bishop of Alexandria
KCC1TIM: has
the supervision of all those places, since this is also the
KCC1TIM: custom
of the Bishop of Rome. Similarly, in regard to Antioch
KCC1TIM: and
the other provinces, let the inherited rights of the Churches be
KCC1TIM: preserved.
Certainly it is quite clear that if someone has been
KCC1TIM: made
Bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan, the great
KCC1TIM: Council
defines that such a one is not a Bishop. If however, the
KCC1TIM: vote
was participated in by all, and was made in discernment and
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, once started Tim's auto scroller wont stop till done
KCC1TIM: in
accord with the canons, but it is yet opposed by reason of the
KCC1TIM: contentiousness
displayed by two or three, let the vote of the
KCC1TIM: majority
prevail."
KCC1TIM: This
is what the Canon states. The ridiculous claim you have
KCC1TIM: about
other Bishops having the same right as Pope, are one of a
KCC1TIM: Deceiver.
I believe it is your intention Mr. White, to go out of your
KCC1TIM: way
to champion a false cause. The ancient custom, that means
KCC1TIM: it
had been structured like this in the Church for years! The
KCC1TIM: Metropolitan,
is the Bishop governing his See and other Sees in a
KCC1TIM: given
area. The Metropolitan submits to the Pope, the Vicar of
KCC1TIM: Christ,
the Head of the Church on Earth. We must read this for
KCC1TIM: what
it says, NOT for what one wants it to say. In this case the
KCC1TIM: Bishop
of Alexandria has supervision in his given area, The next
KCC1TIM: part,
"since this is also the Custom of the Bishop of Rome" KEY
KCC1TIM: WORD
ALSO, in other words, the Bishop of Rome ALSO has
KCC1TIM: supervision
over ALL the Metropolitans in ALL areas. There is
KCC1TIM: NOTHING
here that indicates anything else. Only a false Prophet
KCC1TIM: or
deceiver would think otherwise. It seems to me, that anyone
KCC1TIM: well
versed in history would find this argument ridiculous to say
KCC1TIM: the
least. The Primacy of the Pope is not in question here, only
KCC1TIM: the
Delegation of authority to Metropolitan Bishops in their
KCC1TIM: geographical
areas.
KCC1TIM: Let
me give you an example of what the Metropolitan does. Let's
KCC1TIM: say
you are the Defendant in a law suite. You are dissatisfied
KCC1TIM: with
a judge's ruling, you would appeal your case to the Ninth
KCC1TIM: Circuit
Court of
KCC1TIM: Appeals,
there is no way you could appeal to the Supreme Court,
KCC1TIM: you
would have to go locally first. The Metropolitan in this case
KCC1TIM: would
be the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and the Pope in Rome
KCC1TIM: would
represent the Supreme Court in this illustration.
KCC1TIM: Remember,
the Arian Heresy was spreading, and was very
KCC1TIM: powerful
among the military, decisions had to be made and
KCC1TIM: communications
for what they were, there was no time to wait for
KCC1TIM: an
answer from Rome. This delegation of authority to the
KCC1TIM: Metropolitans
made perfect sense and, by the way, this practice
KCC1TIM: has
continued to this present day.
Orthopodeo: This
is ridiculous.
JPIPMPKP: MR WHITE???
KCC1TIM: That
is a fact.
READER1022: KCC:Show us in history before the year 1500 where your views were believed? Direct quote
JasonTE: Tim, please don't use long text files.
JPIPMPKP: READER1022 please be quiet
Orthopodeo: Tim,
I'll put it plainly. If you dump another couple hundred lines of
Orthopodeo: uninterrupted
text, I will consider this "debate" over. OK? This is foolish.
Orthopodeo: One
point at a time. Chunks that can be digested. Meaningful interaction,
Orthopodeo: OK?
READER1022: JPIP: Just getting to the facts. Thanks
RCDEFENDER: KCC1TIM, Orthopodeo, do you both now agree to no long text files?
KCC1TIM: This
question cannot be answered in a simple sentence
JPIPMPKP: READER if you are not a moderator or tim or james please do not speak
KCC1TIM: I
ust prove to you beyond a shadow of your doubt
Orthopodeo: That's
the problem with online debates, my friend. You have to cut up your
Orthopodeo: information
and explain it succinctly.
Cuchulan2: Orthopod: what's the matter? slow reader? :)
RCDEFENDER: Cuchulan, please stop
Orthopodeo: JP:
I object to your being a moderator to begin with. You are tremendously biased.
KCC1TIM: Mr.
White, I think you have struck out.
CalDef: this is ridiculous, sorry
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo, do you agree to me?
Orthopodeo: Tim,
now, shall we try to make this meaningful, or do you wish to just try to
JPIPMPKP: MR white sorry but i have been chosen
Orthopodeo: win
by throwing long text files around?
Jeans Zz: Jason,, they are both using macros,, the rules have to be for both
KCC1TIM: Winning
is not my concern James
Orthopodeo: I
have a small number of citations in short, easy to read bites. I never
Orthopodeo: considered
taking my book, for example, and autoscrolling it.
JPIPMPKP: PLEASE can we all slow down
KCC1TIM: What
concerns me is winning YOU for Christ
JasonTE: Tim, you've been told at least a few times that long text files are not allowed.
Orthopodeo: I
do this type of thing to help others, Tim, not to attempt to flood a room with
my
Orthopodeo: writings.
Now, please, can we discuss the issues *directly*?
KCC1TIM: Jason,
that was never agreed to prior to the debate
Cuchulan2: this is getting childish...maybe we should just go with shorter pieces?
Cuchulan2: of text?
JasonTE: James didn't use anything that even approached the length of Tim's last text file.
JPIPMPKP: CUCH please
Orthopodeo: OK,
I'm going to make one last effort. In your text file you called my use of
Orthopodeo: the
6th canon "ridiculous" and a few other ad-hominems, correct?
KCC1TIM: I
did
RCDEFENDER: KCC1TIM, Orthopodeo, do you both agree to no more long text
RCDEFENDER: files........on 10 lines at a time?
RCDEFENDER: on = only
KCC1TIM: It
depends, I cannot on what I am asked
Orthopodeo: Now,
let's get specific. If there was a functioning Papacy at the time, why
Orthopodeo: does
the 6th canon exist? That is, you seem to assume there was one.
Orthopodeo: Newman
and others recognize there was not. Is it your position that at
Orthopodeo: Nicea
the Pope was seen as the Vicar of Christ, the leader of ALL
Orthopodeo: Christians?
JPIPMPKP: RC tim has many texts prepared
JasonTE: The chat room wasn't agreed to either. There had to be changes. Long text files just
JasonTE: aren't practical here.
Orthopodeo: Long
text files are not practical anywhere. If someone wants to read long
Orthopodeo: text
files, I will send them my book. :)
JPIPMPKP: Jason i agree
KCC1TIM: I
have Cardinal Newman's entire text, would you like to see it?
Cuchulan2: I
would.
JPIPMPKP: TIM
are we going to continue??
KCC1TIM: Cardinal
Newman coverted to the Catholic Faith, James
Orthopodeo: No,
I wouldn't. :) Specifically, however, he did speak to the development of teh
Orthopodeo: Papacy
over time. Do you agree or disagree with him?
Orthopodeo: We
recognize that there are Roman Catholics who would not assert that
Orthopodeo: we
can find the Papacy functioning in the New Testament, for, as John
Orthopodeo: Henry
Cardinal Newman said in his book, _An Essay on the Development
Orthopodeo: of
Christian Doctrine_, "While Apostles were on earth, there was the
Orthopodeo: display
neither of Bishop nor Pope; their power had no prominence, as
Orthopodeo: being
exercised by Apostles. In course of time, first the power of the
Orthopodeo: Bishop
displayed itself, and then the power of the Pope" (p. 149).
KCC1TIM: No
he did not do that James. You are obviously quoting Lorrain Boetner
Orthopodeo: And
Newman goes on to quote with approval Barrow, who wrote, "It is
Orthopodeo: most
prodigious that, in the disputes managed by the Fathers against the
Orthopodeo: heretics,
the Gnostics, Valentinians, &c., they should not, even in the first
Orthopodeo: place,
allege and urge the sentence of the universal pastor and judge, as a
Orthopodeo: most
evidently conclusive argument, as the most efficacious and
Orthopodeo: compendious
method of convincing and silencing them."
Orthopodeo: I
have never cited Lorrained Boettner in my life, actually.
Orthopodeo: I
have Newman's works in my library.
JPIPMPKP: TIM
are you going to continue we are all over the map[ here
Orthopodeo: But
that is a side issue anyway. I assume you believe there was a
Orthopodeo: functioning
Papacy in 325?
JPIPMPKP: MR
white
JPIPMPKP: please
wait jason you there
KCC1TIM: There
was a functioning Papacy sine Peter. Irenaeus proved that
KCC1TIM: with
his list of Popes
JPIPMPKP: what
exactly are we going to do here and what exactly is the topic HISTORY???
KCC1TIM: As
did Eusibius
JasonTE: Let
them go, JP. Don't interupt unless there's a real need to.
Orthopodeo: Lists
of bishops of Rome do not equal a functioning Papacy, my friend.
KCC1TIM: Thankyoui
JPIPMPKP: Jason
i do not agree
Cuchulan2: JP:
shhhhhh!
JPIPMPKP: CUCH
wait
KCC1TIM: We
have Papal writings from every Pope except Linus
Cuchulan2: JP:
SHHHHH!
Orthopodeo: No
one argues that there was no bishop in Rome in 325 (I'd assert there was no
Orthopodeo: monarchical
episcopate in Rome until 140, however). The issue is how the bishop of
Orthopodeo: Rome
was *seen* at that time.
KCC1TIM: You
are quoting Mac Onaghie's version of Newman's text
Orthopodeo: We
have *writings* from *bishops* of Rome, not 'Popes'.
Orthopodeo: I
was citing the Notre Dame printing of Newman, actually. It's sitting on my
KCC1TIM: The
Pope = Bishop of Rome
Orthopodeo: desk
next tome.
KCC1TIM: What
Cardinal Newman is actually saying in this text
Orthopodeo: No,
Tim, the earliest uses of "Pope" were not of the bishop of Rome. In
Orthopodeo: fact,
Cyprian was addressed as "Pope" by the deacons of Rome!
KCC1TIM: Is
that he as a Protestant did not understand the Papacy, and
KCC1TIM: that
is why he converted to the Catholic Faith.
KCC1TIM: I
have that on file James
KCC1TIM: St
Cyprian of Carthage, in the year 252 wrote the following in a
KCC1TIM: letter
to Pope Cornelius, proving once again the Bishop of Rome,
KCC1TIM: the
Pope, has the right of speaking EX-CATHEDRA, and is
KCC1TIM: infaliblie.
KCC1TIM: "With
a false Bishop apponinted for themselves by heretics, they
KCC1TIM: dare
even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and
KCC1TIM: blasphemers
to the Chair of Peter and to the Principal Church, in
KCC1TIM: which
Sacerdotal unity has its source; not did they take thought
KCC1TIM: that
these are Romans, whose faith was praised by the preaching
KCC1TIM: Apostle,
and among whom it is not possible for perfidy to have
KCC1TIM: entrance."
Orthopodeo: I
simply invite all interested to read the passage for themselves. I obtained
Orthopodeo: my
copy of Newman's work from a Catholic bookstore. The section
Orthopodeo: begins,
"For instance, St. Ignatius is silent in his Epistles on the subject of
Orthopodeo: the
Pope's authority."
KCC1TIM: James,
KCC1TIM: You
are quoting the last thing Cardinal Newman wrote as a Protestant layman
KCC1TIM: He
was not a priest in 1834
KCC1TIM: Sorry
Orthopodeo: Tim,
if you think Cyprian thought the Pope was infallible, could you please
KCC1TIM: 1845
Orthopodeo: respond
to the following citation of Cyprian?
Orthopodeo: Cyprian
didn't seem to believe the bishop of Rome had supreme, let alone
Orthopodeo: infallible,
jurisdiction: "Neither can it rescind an ordination rightly perfected,
Orthopodeo: that
Basilides, after the detection of his crimes, and the baring of his
Orthopodeo: conscience
even by his own confession, went to Rome and deceived
Orthopodeo: Stephen
our colleague, placed at a distance, and ignorant of what had
Orthopodeo: been
done, and of the truth, to canvass that he might be replaced unjustly
Orthopodeo: in
the episcopate from which he had been righteously deposed."
Orthopodeo: And,
if the early Church believed as you do, why did the 7th Council of
Orthopodeo: Carthage
say the following?
Orthopodeo: The
Seventh Council of Carthage, under the leadership of Cyprian, said,
Orthopodeo: "For
neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by
Orthopodeo: tyrannical
terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of
Orthopodeo: obedience;
since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty
Orthopodeo: and
power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be
Orthopodeo: judged
by another than he himself can judge another."
KCC1TIM: First
of all, I did not know Cyprian lived to be over 500 years old
Orthopodeo: Excuse
me?
KCC1TIM: How
can he write in the 3rd century and then you quote him in the 7th century?
Orthopodeo: I
didn't. You misread me.
KCC1TIM: In
256, Cyprian wrote:
KCC1TIM: Would
heretics dare to come to the very Seat of Peter
KCC1TIM: whence
Apostolic Faith is derived and wither no Errors can come.
Orthopodeo: Thank
you, Tim, for brining up the cathedra Petri, the chair of Peter.
KCC1TIM: Or
to put it simply, St. Augustine said, Rome has spoken the case is closed.
Orthopodeo: Much
is often made by Roman Catholic apologists of the fact that Cyprian,
Orthopodeo: the
bishop of Carthage in the middle of the 3rd century, viewed Peter as
Orthopodeo: the
"rock" of Matthew 16. Yet, they almost never tell the rest of the
story, if
Orthopodeo: they
are even aware of it. And that is this: the "cathedra Petri," the
"chair
Orthopodeo: of
Peter," in Cyprian (and the rest of the North African Fathers) was not
Orthopodeo: located
in Rome alone, but in *all* sees. *All* bishops sit in the chair of
KCC1TIM: The
Chair is the Office of the Pope
Orthopodeo: Peter.
Orthopodeo: Notice
Cyprian's own words from Epistle XXVI: "Our Lord, whose
Orthopodeo: precepts
and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honor OF
Orthopodeo: A
BISHOP (emphasis mine), and the order of His Church, speaks in the
Orthopodeo: Gospel,
and says to Peter: "I say unto you...[Matt 16:19 cited] Thence,
Orthopodeo: through
the change of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and
Orthopodeo: the
plain of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon
Orthopodeo: the
bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same
Orthopodeo: rulers."
Orthopodeo: So
you see, Tim, you last statement is historically incorrect. The chair is
Orthopodeo: NOT
the office of 'Pope" for Cyprian. It is the office of BISHOP.
Orthopodeo: Augustine
knew this well, and used the same terminology.
KCC1TIM: However,
Peter is still the Head and the First Pope as I have
KCC1TIM: stated
several times tonight with Proof that you seem to ignore.
Orthopodeo: BTW,
as to your use of Augustine's statement, that's not even what he
Orthopodeo: actually
wrote, as I'm sure you know.
KCC1TIM: Yes,
we know Cyprian was a Bishop and he was in Communion with the Pope
Orthopodeo: I've
ignored nothing but long, long text files, my friend, and even then, I've
Orthopodeo: tried
to respond to as much as I could.
Cuchulan2: <yawn!>
KCC1TIM: James,
the quote by Augustine was in his Sermons.. Sorry
KCC1TIM: buddy,
but you struck out there.
Orthopodeo: He
was in communion with the bishop of Rome. Please show me anywhere where
Orthopodeo: Cyprian
called the man "Pope," or in any way bowed to his ultimate authority.
Orthopodeo: Tim:
Which sermon is it? I know, but do you?
Orthopodeo: What
was the topic Augustine was addressing?
KCC1TIM: James,
the Term Pope is irrelevant
KCC1TIM: The
Official Title of the Pope or the Bishop of Rome is:
KCC1TIM: The
Servant of the Servants of God.
Orthopodeo: If
it is irrelevant, stop using it anachronistically to describe a period when
Orthopodeo: there
was no one who claimed the title.
Orthopodeo: Now,
about Augustine. What was the topic, please?
KCC1TIM: It
is like the Trinity, it is not mentioned in the bible, yet, we both
KCC1TIM: agree
that it is so.
KCC1TIM: Did
not St. Paul say not to bicker over words?
Orthopodeo: The
evidence for the Trinity is broad and deep, and found throughout
Orthopodeo: Scripture.
The evidence for the Papacy is not even in the same universe,
Orthopodeo: comparatively
speaking.
KCC1TIM: 2
Tim 2:15 I believe?
Orthopodeo: Can
you answer the question about Augustine, or shall we conclude that you simply
Orthopodeo: cited
it, without reading it?
JPIPMPKP: mr
white is this relevant???
KCC1TIM: James,
Jesus was not passing gas in the wind when He gave peter the Keys
Orthopodeo: It
is.
JPIPMPKP: tim
answer if you know or not
KCC1TIM: LEt
me scroll uop
KCC1TIM: I
was typing
Orthopodeo: Tim,
it seems you have come to the end of your rope here. I find the
Orthopodeo: phraseology
offensive, first of all, even if Luther would have liked it.
Orthopodeo: Secondly,
you have never once answered a simple question: since the
Orthopodeo: verb
is future, when is this promise fulfilled?
Orthopodeo: If
I say, "I will (future tense) give Tim a thousand dollars," isn't it
reasonable
Orthopodeo: to
ask, "When?"
KCC1TIM: Augustine
was simply saying the Pope was the Supreme Leader
KCC1TIM: on
Earth and the quote is
Orthopodeo: Tim:
Which Pope, and what was the subject?
Orthopodeo: In
fact, what is the direct quote?
KCC1TIM: authentic,
which you seem to think is made up
RCDEFENDER: KCC1TIM,
and Orthopodeo, end of first hour ( I goave extra time due
RCDEFENDER: to
hacker and Tim getting punt)
KCC1TIM: All
the Popes and their successors James
Orthopodeo: I
did not say it was inauthentic. It is Sermon 131. I've read it. Have you?
KCC1TIM: I
would not quote it if I didn;t
Orthopodeo: Tim:
Please, I'm going to let you off the hook on that one. I simply will
Orthopodeo: suggest
that the readers look at what Augustine REALLY said in Sermon
Orthopodeo: 131.
Now, back to Matthew 16.
KCC1TIM: St.
Siricius was Pope at the time of Augustine
KCC1TIM: It
is your move then?
Orthopodeo: Tim,
the discussion had nothing to do with the Papacy, nor the power of Rome. Read
Orthopodeo: it
sometime. Now, back to your colorful metaphor about the keys. When did Jesus
Orthopodeo: give
Peter the keys? What specific point in time, please?
KCC1TIM: The
Keys are clearly defined in Isaia 22:22
Orthopodeo: Isaiah
22 speaks of the key (singular) of the House of David. Please show
Orthopodeo: me
how the KEY (singular) of the house of David became the KEYS
Orthopodeo: (plural)
of heaven?
KCC1TIM: Why
do you think Jesus gave Peter the Keys? It was not to drive a Mercedes.
KCC1TIM: Yes,
James, I stated that in my text earlier
Orthopodeo: Please
show me where the New Testament says the KEY of David is to be identified
Orthopodeo: as
the KEYS of the House of David?
Orthopodeo: And,
could you please explain how Jesus still has the KEY of David in Revelation
3:7?
Orthopodeo: (Revelation
3:7) "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He
Orthopodeo: who
is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one
Orthopodeo: will
shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:
KCC1TIM: The
Apostles were Jews, they understood this. Why can't you?
KCC1TIM: The
Angels in the Book of Revelations were the Bishops of the Catholic Church
Orthopodeo: I
understand it just fine, Tim. Let's put it this way. Can you cite a SINGLE
Orthopodeo: father
of the early Church...all the way to say, 1,100 AD, who saw Isaiah 22
Orthopodeo: in
the way you do? Just one?
KCC1TIM: Now
it just might make some sense to you.
KCC1TIM: There
are many
KCC1TIM: Cyprian
and I quote
Orthopodeo: Revelation
3:7 says it is JESUS who HAS (present tense) the key of David. How did
Orthopodeo: the
bishop of Rome (who is not addressed in the book of Revelation) have the same
Orthopodeo: key,
please?
KCC1TIM: "To
be in Communion with the Bishop of Rome, is to be in
KCC1TIM: Communion
with the Catholic Church."
KCC1TIM: Peter
had the Keys James
KCC1TIM: they
were passed on
Orthopodeo: Tim,
Cyprian said nothing about Isaiah 22. Now, please, a single early Father who
Orthopodeo: cited
Isaiah 22 and made the application you did. Please?
KCC1TIM: that
means to his successors
KCC1TIM: He
made reference to the pope James.
Orthopodeo: Yes,
Peter had the keys....which he received EQUALLY with the other Apostles in
Orthopodeo: Matthew
18:18. Yes or no?
KCC1TIM: One
point at a time here please
KCC1TIM: You
are jumping around James
Orthopodeo: Tim,
I'm going to take your responses as indicative of the fact that you
Orthopodeo: can't
answer the question and can't give me a single early Father who
Orthopodeo: used
Isaiah 22 as you do.
Orthopodeo: No,
my friend, I'm simply responding to your points as they appear on my screen.
KCC1TIM: James
I just did
KCC1TIM: I
gave you reference to the Pope
Orthopodeo: No,
Tim, as anyone can see, you did not provide a quotation from Cyprian regarding
Orthopodeo: Isaiah
22. Do you claim you did?
KCC1TIM: The
Keys are the Authority of his office
KCC1TIM: the
Symbol
Orthopodeo: Which
Cyprian said ALL bishops hold. Fine, now, back to your use of Isaiah 22.
Orthopodeo: Where
did ANYONE in the history of the first ONE THOUSAND YEARS of the Church
Orthopodeo: use
this passage as you are using it?
KCC1TIM: James
a direct quote on Isaia was made by Jesus Christy Himself, isn't He qualified?
Orthopodeo: You
see, Tim, I can cite lots of folks who interpreted Matthew 16:18 as I do;
Orthopodeo: but
you can't cite a single person who interpreted Isaiah 22 as you do. Isn't
Orthopodeo: that
a little strange?
KCC1TIM: Jesus
is the Rock, and hewn from that Rock is Peter and his successors
Orthopodeo: Yes,
Jesus quoted the passage....of HIMSELF, not the bishop of Rome.
KCC1TIM: Christ
did
KCC1TIM: Is
that starnge James?
Orthopodeo: Well,
I believe the point has been made beyond question. Let me address an issue
Orthopodeo: that
hasn't yet come up.
Orthopodeo: How
do you deal with the fact that historically there was no monarchical (one man)
Orthopodeo: episcopate
in Rome until about AD 140?
KCC1TIM: That
is not true You are attempting to change history
Orthopodeo: OK,
if I might substantiate my statement.
KCC1TIM: Even
Paul subbmitted to Peter's authority
Orthopodeo: One
of the most troubling facts of the historical record for defenders of the Roman
Orthopodeo: supremacy
is that there was no monarchical (one-man) episcopate in Rome until
Orthopodeo: around
140AD. As patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly noted concerning Anacletus, "His
Orthopodeo: actual
functions and responsibilities can only be surmised, for the monarchial, or
Orthopodeo: one-man,
episcopate had not yet emerged in Rome."
Orthopodeo: We
shouldn't miss the significance of this reality: if the most ancient form
Orthopodeo: of
church government prevailed in Rome until the middle of the second
Orthopodeo: century
(that being a plurality of elders as seen in the NT), then obviously
Orthopodeo: no
one believed that the Church's foundation was to be found in the single
Orthopodeo: bishop
of Rome, the successor of Peter!
KCC1TIM: I
will now refute that
Orthopodeo: And
lest you think this is just a Protestant conclusion, I refer you to Joseph
Orthopodeo: F.
Kelly, a Roman Catholic, writing for The Liturgical Press, in his book,
Orthopodeo: _The
Concise Dictionary of Early Christianity_, where Kelly remarks, ". . . it
Orthopodeo: is
likely that in the earliest Roman community a college of presbyters
Orthopodeo: rather
than a single bishop provided the leadership." See also Kenneth
Orthopodeo: Strand,
"Governance in the First-Century Christian Church in Rome: Was it
Orthopodeo: Collegial?"
(Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring, 1992, Vol. 30,
Orthopodeo: No.
1, 59-75.)
Orthopodeo: This
explains why Clement's letter is written in the plural, without even
Orthopodeo: Clement's
name attached, and why when Ignatius wrote to the Romans, he
Orthopodeo: never
once mentioned their bishop!
KCC1TIM: In
regards to the letter of Clement I of Rome to the Corinthians
KCC1TIM: written
about 96 AD. This showed the jurisdiction of the Bishop of
KCC1TIM: Rome,
the Pope, over Bishops outside the Diocese of Rome. It is
KCC1TIM: an
authentic case and documented of the Bishop of Rome
KCC1TIM: claiming
a Primacy of jurisdiction outside of Rome. His letter was
KCC1TIM: read
at Mass at the Catholic Churches in Corinth on Sundays and
KCC1TIM: adhered
to.
Orthopodeo: BTW,
may I take a moment to thank the folks in this room? I think it is
Orthopodeo: great
that you all are observing without interruption. My thanks to you.
Orthopodeo: Actually,
Tim, I'm glad you brought up that letter.
KCC1TIM: Yes
thanks to you too everyone has been great
KCC1TIM: Good.
Orthopodeo: Could
you please cite a single passage in the letter where the single
Orthopodeo: bishop
of Rome speaks?
KCC1TIM: Clement
is the Bishop of Rome, there is only one at time.
Orthopodeo: In
fact, can you provide a single reference from the letter that identifies
Orthopodeo: Clement
as its writer?
KCC1TIM: LOL,
come now James, you are grasping at straws
Orthopodeo: That
is a historical anachronism, my friend, You are reading history
Orthopodeo: backwards
through the eyes of Rome. That is my whole point. When you
Orthopodeo: read
history as history stands, you find things to be quite different.
Orthopodeo: You
may laugh at patristic scholars like Kelly if you wish, but that doesn't
Orthopodeo: change
the reality of the citations I provided above.
KCC1TIM: The
history was NEVER changed until after the Reformation.
Orthopodeo: The
fact is, if you read Clement (it is required reading in the Christology
Orthopodeo: class
I am teaching right now), you will find that the letter is written by a
Orthopodeo: GROUP
of ELDERS in Rome, not by a BISHOP. Now, if you wish me to
Orthopodeo: cite
examples, I will.
KCC1TIM: If
the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, then I cannot be wrong on this
KCC1TIM: That
is your opinion
Orthopodeo: It
is quite easy to invoke the claim of the Spirit on your own side, Tim. I
Orthopodeo: could
do the same. But there is one difference: when I speak of the truth, I
Orthopodeo: can
document it. You seemingly are having a hard time doing that.
KCC1TIM: Who
wrote your text book?
Orthopodeo: It's
not a text book, my friend. It's the text of the epistle I was making
Orthopodeo: reference
to, known as 1 Clement.
KCC1TIM: I
have documented nearly everything and you complained about it
Orthopodeo: Documentation
is other than text dumping, my friend.
KCC1TIM: I
gave you the quote it says what it says
KCC1TIM: You
pass it off as text dumping, but in actuallity it refutes your views
Orthopodeo: Now,
can you show me a single reference in that epistle (the Greek of
Orthopodeo: which
is sitting next to my keyboard) that identifies Clement as its author,
Orthopodeo: and
the single bishop of Rome as exercising jurisdiction over the
Orthopodeo: Corinthians?
Orthopodeo: You
could prove that easily, Tim, by just providing the evidence I'm asking for.
KCC1TIM: Are
you reading any this?
Orthopodeo: Of
course, Tim. Now, can you answer the last few questions, please?
KCC1TIM: Let
me scroll up
Orthopodeo: Up
above you gave me a seven line paragraph on Clement. See it?
Orthopodeo: You
said it is a documented instance of the BISHOP of Rome claiming "a
Orthopodeo: Primacy
of jurisdiction outside of Rome." I am asking you to prove your
Orthopodeo: point
from the text itself.
KCC1TIM: Yes
I did, and He addressed the Corinthians
KCC1TIM: The
Metroplitan again
Orthopodeo: The
letter addresses the Corinthians. Please show me where it speaks of
KCC1TIM: Ok
bare with me
Orthopodeo: the
"bishop" (singular) of Rome.
KCC1TIM: St.
Cyril of Jerusale, 363
Orthopodeo: What
does Cyril of Jerusalem have to do with Clement's epistle to the Corinthians
Orthopodeo: nearly
300 years earlier?
Sherimar: but
HE SHOULD BE !!!!!!!!!
KCC1TIM: In
the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, also the formost of the
KCC1TIM: Apostles
and The KEYBEAR
Sherimar: sorry
Orthopodeo: Had
to be said, eh, Sheri? :) Tension breaker.
KCC1TIM: of
the Kingdom of Heaven, healed Aeneas the paralytic in the
KCC1TIM: name
of Christ. That answers your Early Father on the Keys
KCC1TIM: Stand
bye for Corinthians
KCC1TIM: First,
I would like to answer the Metropolitan question
KCC1TIM: That
concerns the council of Nicea
Orthopodeo: I
didn't ask a Metropolitan question. To what do you refer?
KCC1TIM: Canon
6
Orthopodeo: Oh,
OK.
KCC1TIM: I
shared part of my answer with you already
KCC1TIM: Now
bear with me please
KCC1TIM: This
will settle all agrements
KCC1TIM: THE
SIXTH NICENE CANON AND THE PAPACY
Orthopodeo: I
think you mean arguments, and to be honest, I doubt it. :)
KCC1TIM: by
James F. Loughlin
KCC1TIM: American
Catholic Quarterly Review, v.5, 1880, pp.220-239
KCC1TIM: Electronic
version Copyright İ 1997, Classica Media, Inc.
KCC1TIM: [Ta
archaia ethe krateito ta en Aigupto kai Liboe kai Pentapolei,
KCC1TIM: hoste
ton Alexandreias episopon panton touton echein ten
KCC1TIM: exousian,
epeide kai to en te Rome episkopo touto sunethes
KCC1TIM: estin.
Homoios de kai kata Antiocheian kai en tais allais
KCC1TIM: eparchias
ta presbeia sozesthai tais ekklesiais]1
KCC1TIM: Those
holy and venerable Fathers of Nicĉa," said St. Leo I the
Orthopodeo: No,
Tim, don't upload another text.
KCC1TIM: Great,2
"who, after having condemned to eternal infamy Arius and
KCC1TIM: his
blasphemies, enacted a series of church canons destined to
KCC1TIM: have
force to the end of times are not dead; for, both here at
KCC1TIM: Rome
and throughout the whole world they are judged to be still
KCC1TIM: living
in their immortal decrees." We feel this undying influence of
KCC1TIM: the
three hundred and eighteen bishops just as vividly to-day,
KCC1TIM: though
nearly sixteen centuries have passed since they met in
KCC1TIM: Bithynia,
as St. Leo did fourteen hundred years ago. Of the twenty
KCC1TIM: canons
which they promulgated, not one has grown entirely
KCC1TIM: obsolete;
for the majority of them relate to things of catholic and
KCC1TIM: fundamental
interest, and the few which were enacted for the
KCC1TIM: protection
of assailed individual rights or the extirpation of local
KCC1TIM: abuses
have in them a germ of immortality.
KCC1TIM: Canon
VI. is an instance of this latter class. The main object of
KCC1TIM: the
decree is to confirm the time-honored privileges of the See
KCC1TIM: ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
KCC1TIM: 1
The rest of the canon deals with matters which do not here
KCC1TIM: concern
us.
KCC1TIM: 2
Ep. 106, ad Anatolium.
KCC1TIM: of
Alexandria. From time immemorial the bishops of that city had
KCC1TIM: claimed
and exercised supreme jurisdiction over the churches of
KCC1TIM: Egypt
and the neighboring provinces. They received the appeals of
KCC1TIM: the
bishops from the sentence of their metropolitans; convened
KCC1TIM: and
presided over provincial synods; they ordained a if necessary,
KCC1TIM: deposed
bishops; in a word they were, in the phraseology of a
KCC1TIM: later
age, patriarchs. Whatever may have been the source of this
KCC1TIM: authority,
there is no record of its having been contested by any of
KCC1TIM: the
Egyptian bishops before Meletius of Lycopoli, raised the
KCC1TIM: standard
of rebellion.
KCC1TIM: This
Meletius, as we learn from Socrates,1 having been degraded
KCC1TIM: by
St. Peter of Alexandria in consequence of many heavy
KCC1TIM: charges,
the most grievous of which was that during the
KCC1TIM: persecution
he had denied the faith and sacrificed, would not
KCC1TIM: submit
to the sentence of his superior; and not content with
KCC1TIM: renouncing
all allegiance to the Alexandrian See, he arrogated an
KCC1TIM: equal
right with the patriarch to ordain bishops and convene
KCC1TIM: synods
throughout Egypt. By attaching to his cause all the
KCC1TIM: disaffected
elements through the country, he sowed religious
KCC1TIM: dissension
in every parish, and soon was leader of a numerous
KCC1TIM: and
devoted faction, which obtained quite a formidable accession
KCC1TIM: of
strength by coalition with the partisans of Arius. Indeed the
KCC1TIM: desire
of putting an end to the Meletian schism was one of the
KCC1TIM: chief
motives which impelled Constantine, "with the advice of the
KCC1TIM: clergy,"
to convoke the Nicene Council.
KCC1TIM: The
great synod decreed "that the ancient order of things in
KCC1TIM: Egypt,
Libya, and Pentapolis must be maintained, to wit, that the
KCC1TIM: Bishop
of Alexandria should have authority over all these
KCC1TIM: provinces."
And lest similar disorders might arise in Antioch or
KCC1TIM: elsewhere,
the Council enacted furthermore "that all the churches
KCC1TIM: should
keep their ancient standing."
KCC1TIM: The
decree thus far is perfectly clear and reasonable; but it is not,
KCC1TIM: to
use St. Leo's term, [diaionizon]. Its importance has not survived
KCC1TIM: the
ravages of time. Many an age has rolled by since those
KCC1TIM: brilliant
luminaries of ancient ChristendomAlexandria, Antioch,
KCC1TIM: Heraclea,
Cĉsarea, Ephesuswere extinguished. They were
KCC1TIM: undoubtedly
grand and princely in the day of their strength, but
KCC1TIM: their
greatness was of men and shared the inevitable fate of
KCC1TIM: human
things. Of what importance, save to the antiquary, are now
KCC1TIM: those
old patriarchates with their accessories of high prerogatives,
KCC1TIM: august
state, and far-stretching boundaries? If it was permitted to
KCC1TIM: those
ancient princes of the Church to revisit these mortal
KCC1TIM: scenes,
their self-esteem would probably be less mortified by
KCC1TIM: finding
that every vestige of their patriarchdoms has been swept
KCC1TIM: away,
than by perceiving how
KCC1TIM: ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
KCC1TIM: 1
Lib. i., c. 6.
KCC1TIM: Ok
I have 7 more parts, please say when you are ready
Orthopodeo: Unlike
my adversary, I will give you a brief discussion of the relevance of
Orthopodeo: Canon
6. It's significance is easily understood: If in fact there was a
Orthopodeo: functioning
Papacy at the time of Nicea (which there wasn't), having a
Orthopodeo: canon
that gives LIMITED jurisdictional rights to the bishop of Rome,
KCC1TIM: It
is imparative that you read this to comprehend
Orthopodeo: merely
recognizing that he , like other individuals, had such rights in the
Orthopodeo: past,
would hardly be of assistance.
Orthopodeo: No,
Tim, you have been asked not to upload massive text files. Condense
Orthopodeo: the
material and explain the assertions.
KCC1TIM: I
have already given you the answer to that
JPIPMPKP: tim
MR white we have to be fair here
Orthopodeo: JP:
Yes, we do. And uploading text files is not fair, nor useful.
JPIPMPKP: tim
please just say it concisely as you can
KCC1TIM: OK,
We'll play it your way
JPIPMPKP: MR
white do not harrass me again
Orthopodeo: I
wasn't, JP.
JPIPMPKP: i
was trying to be fair
KCC1TIM: The
fact of the matter is, the Council delagated the authority of the
KCC1TIM: Pope
to the Metroploitian Bishops
Orthopodeo: That
assumes what you have yet to prove, Tim: that existence of the
Orthopodeo: Papacy
at the time of the writing!
KCC1TIM: With
Communications what they were in the 4th Century it made sense to do this
Orthopodeo: You
see, without the anachronistic *assumption* of the existence of an
Orthopodeo: edifice
that *evolved* over time, the historical information simply doesn't
Orthopodeo: say
what you would like it to say.
KCC1TIM: I
have proved to you already, but your stubborness like Phjaroe of
KCC1TIM: the
OT has hardened your heart. You have eyes, but do not see.
KCC1TIM: OK,
Here is what Pope Gregory the Great said in 600
Orthopodeo: It
is easy to dismiss such things by saying your opponent is spiritually
KCC1TIM: about
John 21
Orthopodeo: blind,
my friend, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.
Orthopodeo: I
will gladly grant you Pope Gregory six hundred years after Christ.
Orthopodeo: Of
course, you might want to avoid quoting his rejection of the Apocryphal books,
Orthopodeo: though.
. . . :) < grin! >
KCC1TIM: "By
the voice of the lord, the Care of the whole Church was
KCC1TIM: committed
to Peter, ther Head of all the Apostles; for to him it
KCC1TIM: was
said, Peter lovest thou Me feed My Sheep."
Orthopodeo: I
will gladly admit that the Popes of Rome claimed this passage for
Orthopodeo: themselves
in later church history. Would you care to quote any, though, in
Orthopodeo: the
early periods? Say, in the first four hundred years?
KCC1TIM: No
James that is not true
KCC1TIM: Gregory
did no such comning of the Dueterocanonical books
Orthopodeo: What
isn't true, Tim?
KCC1TIM: Where
did you come up with that one?
Orthopodeo: Yes,
my friend, he did. It's pretty well known, actually. But, that's another
Orthopodeo: issue.
I shouldn't have brought it up.
KCC1TIM: You
should not have brought it up because it only exists only in your mind
KCC1TIM: Next
question please?
Orthopodeo: Gregory
the Great, Morals on the Book of Job, Vol. II, parts III and IV, Book
Orthopodeo: XIX.34,
in A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church, p. 424.
Orthopodeo: "With
reference to which particular we are not acting irregularly, if from the
Orthopodeo: books,
though not Canonical, yet brought out for the edification of the
Orthopodeo: Church,
we bring forward testimony. Thus Eleazar in the battle smote and
Orthopodeo: brought
down an elephant, but fell under the very beast that he killed (1
Orthopodeo: Macc.
6.46)."
Orthopodeo: Not
my mind, friend, in simple historical record.
Orthopodeo: (The
New Catholic Encyclopedia confirms that Pope Gregory did not accept a
Orthopodeo: canonical
status for the Apocrypha (II:390).)
Orthopodeo: Does
the New Catholic Encyclopedia exist only in my mind, Tim?
KCC1TIM: That
is Macc 3 and 4 James, Not Books 1 and 2
KCC1TIM: Books
one and 2 anre Canonical
Orthopodeo: Sorry,
friend, look again: FIRST Macc 6:46.
KCC1TIM: Sorry,
but good try!
JPIPMPKP: is
this on topic gentlemen???
Orthopodeo: Very
good try indeed, since it is truth.
Orthopodeo: Would
you like to hear what Cardinal Cajetan said about that, Tim?
KCC1TIM: That
is off the subject anyhow James
JPIPMPKP: MR
white do you have another point??
Orthopodeo: Fine.
KCC1TIM: Oh
BTW
Orthopodeo: According
to my clock, we've been at this right at 2 hours now, correct?
KCC1TIM: The
letter to the Corinthians
RCDEFENDER: Time
check: 1 1/2 hours
Orthopodeo: We
began well before 7PM. Had a brief interruption, and continued.
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo,
I gave a half hour for all the trouble earlier
JasonTE: Correct,
James.
KCC1TIM: You
werre leading up to the Second letter of Clement which has been termed bogus
Orthopodeo: No,
my friend, I made no reference to such a letter at all.
KCC1TIM: St.
Sotor
KCC1TIM: admonished
the Corinthians
KCC1TIM: That
is your early Father in 166
Orthopodeo: I
referenced only 1 Clement, the recognized and correct text. I asked you
Orthopodeo: to
show me a single place wherein that letter you find the SINGLE
"bishop"
Orthopodeo: of
Rome referenced.
KCC1TIM: I
will quote it
Orthopodeo: Quote
only from 1 Clement, please. That's all I cited.
KCC1TIM: "You
have also by your very admonition
Orthopodeo: I
cited no spurious books, and I ask that you don't, either. We don't need
Orthopodeo: to
begin discussing the Donation of Constantine or all the other spurious
Orthopodeo: books
that have been used through the centuries to support Papal claims.
KCC1TIM: Pope
St. Sotor did not write a spurrious book
KCC1TIM: His
letter addressed the church in Corinth
JPIPMPKP: MR
white could you define spurious???
KCC1TIM: False
KCC1TIM: Spurrius
= false
JPIPMPKP: but
who decided what is spurious ??
Orthopodeo: Soter
wrote a letter sometime after 166. So? What does this have to do with
Orthopodeo: Clement's
epistle to the Corinthians?
RCDEFENDER: JPIPMPKP,
please only KCC1TIM, and Orthopodeo,
Orthopodeo: Excuse
me, but Tim used the term "bogus" and said that I was "leading
up" to it. I
Orthopodeo: wasn't.
KCC1TIM: You
asked nme to give you an early father writing to the
KCC1TIM: Corinthians.
I have now done so.
Orthopodeo: I
did not ask you to give me an early father who wrote to the Corinthians. I
Orthopodeo: asked
you to back up what you said in your own statement about
Orthopodeo: Clement's
epistle to the Corinthians.
KCC1TIM: I
gave you the quote
Orthopodeo: YOU
said that this letter provides a DOCUMENTED example of Papal
Orthopodeo: jurisdiction.
I've simply asked you to DOCUMENT what you claimed to do.
Orthopodeo: Excuse
me, but how can you cite a letter written generations later as if it is
Orthopodeo: relevant
to the earlier one?
KCC1TIM: What,
do you want me to type the entire letter in here?
KCC1TIM: Come
james! Be reasonable!
Orthopodeo: No,
I could do that if I wanted to.
KCC1TIM: That
is why I made text files to save time!
Orthopodeo: It's
simple, Tim. I've asked you to quote from CLEMENTS epistle to the Corinthians
Orthopodeo: which
is what YOU were citing.
Orthopodeo: Can
you, or can you not, document your OWN claim regarding 1 Clement?
KCC1TIM: I
did that once, but ok, if you insist
Orthopodeo: No
references to some later epistle, since that is irrelevant.
KCC1TIM: let
me dig it out
Orthopodeo: You
have not provided such a citation.
KCC1TIM: This
is going to take some time, what exactly is your point?
Orthopodeo: No
need, Tim. My point is clear.
KCC1TIM: Your
point is irrelevant
Orthopodeo: YOU
claimed that in FIRST CLEMENT we have a DOCUMENTED
Orthopodeo: instance
of Papal jurisdiction and primacy outside the city of Rome. You
Orthopodeo: can't
document that claim, and have consistently refused to do so.
KCC1TIM: "The
Church of God which sojourns in Rome
KCC1TIM: to
the Church of God which sojourns in Corinth
Orthopodeo: Yes,
thank you! The CHURCH, not the BISHOP. Keep typing it in!
KCC1TIM: to
those who are called and sanctified by God
RCDEFENDER: Time
check: Per a 2 hour debate there is 15 mins left. Do you each
RCDEFENDER: want
to do any closing statements giving yourselves a few mins for a
RCDEFENDER: rebuttal?
KCC1TIM: Grace
and peace from Almighty God
KCC1TIM: be
multiplied unto you through Jesus Christ
Orthopodeo: Let
me give you some more...."...which are befalling us, brethren, WE
Orthopodeo: consider
that we have been somewhat tardy in giving heed to the matters
Orthopodeo: of
dispute that have arisen among you..."
KCC1TIM: owing
to the sudden and repeated calamities
KCC1TIM: and
the misfortunes which have befallen us
Orthopodeo: See
the verb Tim? WE. Plural. Not "I" as in "I the bishop of
Rome." The
Orthopodeo: entire
letter is like that, friend.
Orthopodeo: Please,
if you wish to have any passage in the letter quoted, tell me. I can
Orthopodeo: quote
it directly from my CD ROM.
KCC1TIM: we
must acknowlege that we have been somewhat tardy
Orthopodeo: Just
give me the reference.
KCC1TIM: OK
the WE
KCC1TIM: He
is speaking about the Magisterium of the Church
Orthopodeo: What
passage would you like cited? I'll fire up SAGE right away.
KCC1TIM: that
is the Majkestic plural
KCC1TIM: Majestic
Orthopodeo: Please
show me where Clement speaks of the Magisterium.
KCC1TIM: Just
like Kings do
KCC1TIM: The
magisterium is the Pope and the Bishops in Communion with him
KCC1TIM: Notice
it starts out the Church of God? That is MORE than ONE person
KCC1TIM: He
is simply the Head
Orthopodeo: No,
my friend, the "we" is the plural elders of the church at Rome. As
Orthopodeo: J.N.D.
Kelly notes, there was no SINGLE bishop of Rome. But, I think the
Orthopodeo: point
is now very firmly established.
KCC1TIM: JND
is out to lunch
KCC1TIM: No
where in history it that ever been taught
Orthopodeo: I
think that's probably a good comment on which to end our dispute this evening.
:)
KCC1TIM: IIf
you are conceding fine, but you have failed to prove your point. I
KCC1TIM: nhave
refuted you
Orthopodeo: I
would like to thank JasonTE for his patience, as well as AOMIN, too.
KCC1TIM: my
fault you do not want to comprehend.
RCDEFENDER: 12
mins left. are both sides calling an end?
Orthopodeo: RC:
I'm sorry, but we began well over two hours ago. I think we've
Orthopodeo: covered
what is going to be useful this evening.
Orthopodeo: Besides,
my keyboard is smoking. :)
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo,
very well Tim?
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo,
LOL
KCC1TIM: It
is Ok by me.
Orthopodeo: Thank
you, Reader, for coming by.
RCDEFENDER: very
well the debate is over
KCC1TIM: But
let it be know it was NOT I that ended this
Orthopodeo: Tim,
shall we stick around and open it up for dialogue for a few minutes?
KCC1TIM: Sure,
but Lets take a potty break
Michl3282: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
READER1022: ORTHO:
my pleasure
ForTKing: thank
you both for a good discussion
Sherimar: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Orthopodeo: Tim,
when you start insulting patristic scholars like JND Kelly, I think it's
Orthopodeo: time
to take a break.
KCC1TIM: BRB
Mother nature calls
FSHG4PEACE: Thank
you.
Sherimar: I've
been sitting on my hands LOL
Michl3282: LOL
Sheri, meeeeee toooooo
Orthopodeo: My
thanks to all of you who observed. You were very patient. :)
I Coffee I: Thanks
Tim and James
FSHG4PEACE: LOL
Sherimar
LPhilipo: hehehe
Sherimar
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo,
an answer for when the "key(s)" were given is at Pentacost.
Orthopodeo: Thanks
for being here, Coffee.
Jeans Zz: Peace
to all
Orthopodeo: RC:
To whom were they given *alone* then?
ForTKing: bye
Jeans
LPhilipo: Jeans
: )
Sherimar: STEVE
YES !!!!!!!!!!! thank you
FSHG4PEACE: Bye
Jeans
Contendj3: great
debate James!
Jeans Zz: Ortho,,
may I make one comment brother in Christ?
I Coffee I: My
pleasure James
LPhilipo: Night
Jeans
Orthopodeo: Contend:
Thanks for coming by!
KCC1TIM: I
am back
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo,
to the Apostles, thus the pope znd curia
I Coffee I: Night
JEANS
RCDEFENDER: znd
= and
Orthopodeo: Jeans:
Of course!
Jeans Zz: Although
we do not see eye to eye,,we can walk hand in hand on our faith journey
Jeans Zz: unity
is the wish of Jesus :-)
FSHG4PEACE: {{{{{{{Jeans}}}}}}}}}
JPIPMPKP: ((((((((jeans))))))))))))))))
Sherimar: {{{{{{{{{{{{{Jeans}}}}}}}}}}}}}
I Coffee I: what
a girl that jeans is F: )
JPIPMPKP: ((((((((((((((SUE)))))))))))))))))))))
LPhilipo: [Jeans}}}}}}}}}}}]
Jeans Zz: seperation
is the wish of the evil one to seperate God's people
Orthopodeo: Jeans:
Yes, but my friend, I think it is a unity of truth, wouldn't you agree?
Sherimar: Jeans
Amen
Orthopodeo: RC:
You find a Pope and a Curia at Pentecost?
JasonTE: There
can't be true "unity" where there's not agreement on the gospel.
Jeans Zz: Ortho,,
don't we agree Jesus is Lord?
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo,
the Apostles. Yes
FSHG4PEACE: Truth
is a gift.
Jeans Zz: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{GROUPHUG}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Orthopodeo: Jeans:
In different ways.
LPhilipo: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Jeans}}}}}}}}}}}}
I Coffee I: James..
I always considered the keys as peters throuhougt his time with christ
JasonTE: The
Judaizers called Jesus "Lord". What did Paul say about them in
Galatians 1:8-9?
Jeans Zz: Ortho,,
I see,, it's okay,, you are still a brother in Jesus to me,,Peace
Orthopodeo: Just
been invited to a little get-together in IRC. Tim, e-mail me about
Orthopodeo: something
in the future. I'd like to suggest a topic that is really "hot" right
Orthopodeo: now:
Mary.
I Coffee I: He
was the one to walk on water the one to speak up.. John waited for him at the
tomb
Michl3282: Orth,
yep that is hot one, I would love that
CHSarchiv: Can
you get a bigger room next time?
RCDEFENDER: Orthopodeo,
see my E-mail about the next debate please thanks :-)
I Coffee I: Goood
one James... I love our lady
TruthWon: Our
Lady
FSHG4PEACE: Our
Blessed Mother, and yours too , we need the aud. for that.
Orthopodeo: CHS:
I'll tell you all about it in IRC. :)
JPIPMPKP: MR
white i will definiotely come to that one
Orthopodeo: Tim,
what do you say? Mary in an auditorium?
ForTKing: i
think an auditorium would have been full tonight too.
Dashace: jason
that is why Our Lord established the Papacy and Apolstolic Authority, so we
would
Jeans Zz: CHS
does your name have anything Christian High School in California
JPIPMPKP: Mr
white define the topic i will talk to tim
Dashace: have
an authoprity to settle thse questions
CHSarchiv: Jeans:
No. It refers to my Web Site. See profile.
Orthopodeo: JP:
Well, we could do the two already infallibly defined dogmas, or the
Orthopodeo: third,
if Tim believes in it.
RCDEFENDER: Dashace,
we did CCFS tiger and Jason, but tiger got punted
Sherimar: Tim
is taking a restroom break
KCC1TIM: James
Mary? I shall be delighted
Jeans Zz: and
through the Papacy, we remain united,, not so many denominations
Orthopodeo: Tim:
The two already defined dogmas, or the one that may well soon be
Orthopodeo: defined,
or all three?
ForTKing: Amen
Jeans
KCC1TIM: Let's
stick to the two already defined
I Coffee I: who
has the log of this I came in late?
Dashace: Amen
Jeans
Orthopodeo: OK,
let's discuss it in e-mail. Have a nice evening!
CHSarchiv: I
don't blame you, Tim.
FSHG4PEACE: RC/
Steve does Coffee
Orthopodeo: I
will post the log on our web site Monday.
JPIPMPKP: coffee
rcdefender
Michl3282: GOD
BLESS Ortho
I Coffee I: Thankyou
Sue
Orthopodeo: Good
night all.
RCDEFENDER: I
Coffee I, it'll be on my web page in a hour of me leaving this room
FSHG4PEACE: welcome
I Coffee I: Blessings
Ortho
FSHG4PEACE: Night
Mr. White
ForTKing: God's
blessing to you Ortho
JPIPMPKP: bye
mr white
ForTKing: Tim
good job
JasonTE: http://members.aol.com/jasonte
MarieDiana: Did
I miss the whole thing?
Michl3282: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{TIM}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
MarieDiana: I
JUST got in! ROFL
KCC1TIM: James,
How about November?
I Coffee I: Yes
Marie.. poor thing
MarieDiana: JUST
MY LUCK.
KCC1TIM: Or
end of October?
TAbbott166: Is
the debate still going?
Jeans Zz: he's
gone
I Coffee I: He;s
gone Tim
FSHG4PEACE: I
think hes gone Tim
Sherimar: TIM,
he left the room
MarieDiana: Did
anyone record it?
MarieDiana: How
did it go?
KCC1TIM: Oh
well
Michl3282: Yes
Marie, quite a few
KCC1TIM: So
how did I do you guys?
I Coffee I: Marie..
RC did
TAbbott166: What
is his screen name?
Dashace: KCC
he is gone
JasonTE: James
should have it on his web site Monday, he said.
KCC1TIM: I
se that Dash
FSHG4PEACE: Great
Tim, you did great.
MarieDiana: That's
great.
JPIPMPKP: tim
wait a minute
Aomin: KCC
James says to E-mail him about Nov
ForTKing: i
think i got it.
KCC1TIM: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SUE}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}]]
RCDEFENDER: go
to http://members.aol.com/RCDEFENDER/index.html in one
RCDEFENDER: hour
to view debate log ( uncencored)
ForTKing: good
RC.
MarieDiana: Thanks!
MarieDiana: I
got your email, RCD.
TAbbott166: Tim,
I missed it but I am looking forware to reading the text.
KCC1TIM: OK
Aomin, thanks
MarieDiana: Me,
too, Tabbott.
KCC1TIM: Ok
Tom
MarieDiana: I
forgot that I had Power Tools and that PT can get me in.
MarieDiana: LOL
RCDEFENDER: <-----going
to work on page God bless you all
TAbbott166: I
heard that some snoop character was harrassing everyone.
MarieDiana: Good
night, RCD.
FSHG4PEACE: Thanks
RC
Sherimar: thanks
Steve : )
Michl3282: {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{[Steve}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}