Free Will Debate
Windsor Answers and Rebuttal of Antony’s Questions
1) How do you logically harmonize your "ALL" interpretation of 6:44, with that of only the "MANY" in 6:37, 6:65 & 17:6-9?
John 6:44: "No man can come to me except the Father who sent me draw Him".
John 6:37: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
John 6:65: “And
He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can
come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
John 17:6-9: “I
have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world;
they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from
You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they
received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they
believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on
behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are
There is no “many” in any of the verses you refer to! When I quoted
6:44 it was to show that no one can come unless he is first drawn.
12:32 tells us that all men are drawn to Him. So 6:44 does not say
“all men” will come to Him, only that of those who are drawn, only those
who come to Him will be raised up on the Last Day. And who are those
who are given (6:37 and 65)? Answer: Those who are foreknown by the God
who will persevere and make the right choice(s) in this life.
passage does limit who is given, but it does not limit who is drawn -
and if it DID limit who was drawn, it would make 12:32 into a lie.
2) Will you now admit that there may be limitations to your "every" man on earth scenario?
Revelation 5:9 is in the context of a vision and not in the same
context of John 6 or John 12. Yes, Revelation 5:9 only speaks of those
who will be saved by His Blood, but does not negate John 3:16 where it
tells us that God loved the WORLD and sent His only Son to die that
WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish. The drawing of “all men” cannot be equivocated to say that those who are drawn are the same as those who will come to Him and/or those whom are given by the Father to the Son.
3) Are you saying that the crucifixtion (sic) results in the drawing of all men unto Himself? If so, how do you reconcile your take on 12:32, with the "BUT" of 1Cor 1:23-24?
we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles
foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Answer: First part, it is not I who says the crucifixion results in the drawing of all men
to Him, Scripture tells us that in John 12:32! As for the “but” in
1Cor 1:23-24, there is no conflict to reconcile here! The first “but”
statement states that they preach Christ crucified - and there’s no
limit as to who they preach to. They preach to the world, but not
everyone in the world will accept what is preached to them. The second
“but” statement refers to those who are “called,” which is not necessarily those who are “drawn.” You’re mixing contexts and terminology
here - and that’s not a good combination in debate. A “calling” refers
to something much more specific than the “drawing” of “all men to Him.”
My opponent refers to the “fallen nature” of mankind, but though fallen, the nature of man is still the nature
of man! Adam and Eve freely chose to accept the temptation of the
serpent. Their punishment did not affect their natural ability to
choose, they remained, by nature, as humans.
relative of mine used to work with “Out of Africa,” near Phoenix, AZ.
One day while working with the big cats (something she did everyday and
enjoyed thoroughly) one of them slapped her across the face with its
paw - literally ripping her face off! She has recovered from the
ordeal, but the big cat was just operating within its nature. The cat did nothing “wrong,”
for that would be a moral judgment which does not apply to amoral
creatures. On the other hand, men can and do make bad or evil choices
all the time, such as the example Mr. Antony provided regarding the
Prescott, AZ couple, murdered on their yacht. This was a CHOICE the criminals made, not something they were pre-programmed to do, or had some puppet master pulling their strings to make them do what they did. No, they CHOSE to covet their neighbor’s possessions and they CHOSE to commit murder. Certainly these choices were not made in a vacuum, and were likely the outcome of a series of choices which led to that end. But Mr. Antony argues it was by their nature
as “children of wrath,” because they “upon exiting the womb immediately
go astray.” If Mr. Antony’s argument were true, then why are we all
not murderous criminals? These
evil persons knew it was wrong when they committed their crimes - but
they had become their own god. In pleasing themselves they were
pleasing their god. But they knew, deep down somewhere, that it was wrong for them to commit these crimes:
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts.—Hebrews 8:10
God does not show favoritism. All who sin apart from the law will also
perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged
by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in
God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared
righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by
nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even
though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements
of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing
witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. (Romans 2:11-16 NIV)
Be careful who your companions are: "Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." (1 Corinthians 15:33 NASB).
one is predestined to do good - then nothing could possibly corrupt
them, so the warning to choose good company would be entirely
meaningless if it were not possible to be corrupted. Likewise, if the
unregenerate could not possibly become saved, then no amount of company,
good or bad, would make a difference.
(Word Count: 1216)