Free Will Debate Antony v. Windsor

Free Will Debate

Round 2b

Windsor Answers and Rebuttal of Antony’s Questions

1)        How do you logically harmonize your "ALL" interpretation of 6:44, with that of only the "MANY" in  6:37, 6:65 & 17:6-9?

John 6:44:  "No man can come to me except the Father who sent me draw Him".

    John 6:37:  “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

    John 6:65:  “And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

    John 17:6-9: “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.  Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.  I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours.”

Answer:  There is no “many” in any of the verses you refer to!   When I quoted 6:44 it was to show that no one can come unless he is first drawn.  12:32 tells us that all men are drawn to Him.  So 6:44 does not say “all men” will come to Him, only that of those who are drawn, only those who come to Him will be raised up on the Last Day.  And who are those who are given (6:37 and 65)?  Answer: Those who are foreknown by the God who will persevere and make the right choice(s) in this life.

The passage does limit who is given, but it does not limit who is drawn - and if it DID limit who was drawn, it would make 12:32 into a lie.

2)   Will you now admit that there may be limitations to your "every" man on earth scenario?

Answer: Revelation 5:9 is in the context of a vision and not in the same context of John 6 or John 12.  Yes, Revelation 5:9 only speaks of those who will be saved by His Blood, but does not negate John 3:16 where it tells us that God loved the WORLD and sent His only Son to die that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish.  The drawing of “all men” cannot be equivocated to say that those who are drawn are the same as those who will come to Him and/or those whom are given by the Father to the Son.

3)  Are you saying  that the crucifixtion (sic) results  in the drawing of all men unto Himself?  If so, how do you reconcile your take on 12:32, with the  "BUT"  of 1Cor 1:23-24?

but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Answer:  First part, it is not I who says the crucifixion results in the drawing of all men to Him, Scripture tells us that in John 12:32!  As for the “but” in 1Cor 1:23-24,  there is no conflict to reconcile here!   The first “but” statement states that they preach Christ crucified - and there’s no limit as to who they preach to.  They preach to the world, but not everyone in the world will accept what is preached to them.  The second “but” statement refers to those who are “called,” which is not necessarily those who are “drawn.”  You’re mixing contexts and terminology here - and that’s not a good combination in debate.  A “calling” refers to something much more specific than the “drawing” of “all men to Him.”

My opponent refers to the “fallen nature” of mankind, but though fallen, the nature of man is still the nature of man!  Adam and Eve freely chose to accept the temptation of the serpent.  Their punishment did not affect their natural ability to choose, they remained, by nature, as humans.  

A relative of mine used to work with “Out of Africa,” near Phoenix, AZ.  One day while working with the big cats (something she did everyday and enjoyed thoroughly) one of them slapped her across the face with its paw - literally ripping her face off!  She has recovered from the ordeal, but the big cat was just operating within its nature.  The cat did nothing “wrong,” for that would be a moral judgment which does not apply to amoral creatures.  On the other hand, men can and do make bad or evil choices all the time, such as the example Mr. Antony provided regarding the Prescott, AZ couple, murdered on their yacht.  This was a CHOICE the criminals made, not something they were pre-programmed to do, or had some puppet master pulling their strings to make them do what they did.  No, they CHOSE to covet their neighbor’s possessions and they CHOSE to commit murder.  Certainly these choices were not made in a vacuum, and were likely the outcome of a series of choices which led to that end.  But Mr. Antony argues it was by their nature as “children of wrath,” because they “upon exiting the womb immediately go astray.”  If Mr. Antony’s argument were true, then why are we all not murderous criminals?  These evil persons knew it was wrong when they committed their crimes - but they had become their own god.  In pleasing themselves they were pleasing their god.  But they knew, deep down somewhere, that it was wrong for them to commit these crimes:

I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts.—Hebrews 8:10

For God does not show favoritism.  All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.  For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.  (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)  This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. (Romans 2:11-16 NIV)

Be careful who your companions are: "Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." (1 Corinthians 15:33 NASB).

If one is predestined to do good - then nothing could possibly corrupt them, so the warning to choose good company would be entirely meaningless if it were not possible to be corrupted.  Likewise, if the unregenerate could not possibly become saved, then no amount of company, good or bad, would make a difference.

(Word Count: 1216)

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